Skin turning blue is racist and needs decolonising.

It can also be complicated by what is going on in society. Girls with autism often are missed or diagnosed late because they present very differently to boys. So they may interact with others with no obvious difficulties, this may be because girls are socialised in a different way to boys.

Wouldn’t it be better to try and move forward productively rather than getting bogged down in the past putting, often inappropriate, labels on everything and everyone aiming to cause division and hurt where none is needed.

I seem to be a bit thick this morning, but not sure if I understand this thread.
When my Heart began misbehaving my GP phoned a Cardiologist to make an appointment for the next day, she told him the history and said I had a Blue tinge to my nails and my lips were a bit blue.
Was that wrong or right ??????

Assuming you’re a Caucasian woman, then that sounds correct for you, Felice. However, were you a dark-skinned woman, blueing of the nails and lips might not be visible and if your GP had relied on that symptom alone, they could have sent you away with the assumption that nothing was wrong.

The symptoms themselves aren’t wrong, it’s when they are used in an inappropriate situation that it’s a problem.

To jump on any 'colonial/racist' band wagon is mad

It's not about jumping on a bandwagon. It's not saying that individual doctors are racist. It's just saying that the standard model of training is "institutionally racist" because it is not taking into account the different identification factors for different ethnic groups. Personally I think the "decolonising" is not necessary to say, but it comes from it being recognised that the colonial attitudes and approaches of previous generations and times will have impacted on the training development. You might also be interested to look into the history of ethnic minorities in our country over the centuries ...our population was very far from as white as some history books and teaching would have us think!!

And if you dont understand why it happens it will keep happening.

No one is saying that all doctors are racist.

Why are so many dismissive of this? This has nothing to do with “bandwagons” and everything to do with making sure that all people are getting proper medical care! Symptoms of conditions present differently depending on sex and skin colour.

Why are so many seeming to fight to keep everything as is so that the main beneficiaries are white men?

I want the women in my family to have the same good care as men. I want my BAME friends and neighbours to have the same good care.

It’s not unknown that many issues are missed in women and the BAME population due to diagnostic tools using white men as standard

felice

I seem to be a bit thick this morning, but not sure if I understand this thread.
When my Heart began misbehaving my GP phoned a Cardiologist to make an appointment for the next day, she told him the history and said I had a Blue tinge to my nails and my lips were a bit blue.
Was that wrong or right ??????

It was correct - it is called 'Cyanosis - a bluish discoloration of the skin due to poor circulation or inadequate oxygenation of the blood'

In dark-skinned people, Cyanosis may be easier to see in the mucous membranes (lips, gums, around the eyes) and nails (where you see it in white people!) I have seen it in dark skinned people before, it's not racist in my opinion, just needs updating if not being 'taught', why do people have to make issues over everything nowadays?

it's not racist in my opinion, just needs updating if not being 'taught', why do people have to make issues over everything nowadays?

It is an example of institutional racism and unless people understand what that is and how it comes about then the same mistakes will be made. It's not about making an issue , just about awareness and change needed!!

I think that the racism occurs when people are made aware that their practice is discriminatory but carry on regardless, that's how I see it too. I agree that most medical textbooks and teaching aids have likely been written by white men, surely it should be the case that updates are made as treatments develop, as experience dictates. We now recognise illness and ailments which may not have been noticed before, thus treatment guidance is updated and modernised. We now treat babies who only a generation ago would have not survived, surely medicine is a non stop learning process? Or are medical students only taught from text books written in the 1950's? We have been a multicultural country for a long time, surely medicine is trying to keep up? Or am I being over optimistic?

Poggs: Astonished to read this article. What on earth is happening to Britain. I grew up in a quiet middle-class city suburb as far removed from cosmopolitan as it was possible to be. As small children our only experience of ethnicity that of a local black GP attending the VE celebration. A figure so unusual to most attendee’s exotic.

Move on a few years and a professional life almost exclusively as a lone female in a male dominated world. Did I feel disadvantaged or discriminated against, quite the reverse. But then I admit accumulation of wealth never the driving force. My family, three male siblings and myself, where money was never in abundance but always provided when needed for an essential. Taught it had to be earned and education and aspiration the fuel and driving force to achievement. All four of use successful in very different professional lives.

Stage 3: and now as an alien in a world I hardly recognise. My country bedevilled by the racist card. A nation who has offered sanctuary and fought and died for the freedom of others. Being undermined by envy and discontent. First the police who risk life and limb to protect us, followed by young soldiers sent to war on our behalf and now the medical profession all in the name of re-writing history to appease malcontents.

I am proud of my country and its history and I do not subscribe to the pettiness of politically correct nonsense. For those who can afford to waste time in useless pursuits the rest of us must "stay calm and carry on".

I know what you mean, I should definitely ignore the issue of girls with autism receiving later or no diagnosis compared to boys for example, presumably whilst singing God Save the Queen, that will definitely make things better for everyone.

MaizieD - I wasn’t in anyway approving or disapproving of your explanation and I’m sorry if my comment made you feel judged. All I was providing was extra information. I definitely think that someone like you who is willing to have an open dialogue around these issues isn’t being dismissive at all.

The medical profession (like every profession) will no doubt have people within it who have racist or bigoted views that may affect their behaviour.
That isn’t what this article was saying though, it was about people within this profession looking to update teaching methods and curriculum to make sure that the colour of someone’s skin doesn’t affect the ability of students to accurately diagnose illness.

Society has evolved and now the institutions therein have to also make sure that there is adequate care taken to also evolve and reflect our current society.

This isn’t an indictment against any of the pioneering work done to advance medical science or to tar anyone as an overt racist. It’s simply an acknowledgement that in order for things to change there must be recognition of the issues in a multicultural society and that the needs of some (BAME) aren’t being met as well as the needs of others (white).

There may be some sensitivity around the use of the term racism around this issue, but I don’t know how else it would be termed? The current system as it stands just now will generally service a white user better than someone of colour and based on this article some of that can be addressed by further research and training.

pettiness of politically correct nonsense

Oh dear me!

Galaxy I know what you mean, I should definitely ignore the issue of girls with autism receiving later or no diagnosis compared to boys for example, presumably whilst singing God Save the Queen, that will definitely make things better for everyone

Yup!!

Lolo81 Excellent post.

I thought that a blueish tinge would be visible in fingernails.
Isn't that why patients are asked to remove nail varnish before attending hospital for check ups and particularly operations?

Presumably the term 'blue baby syndrome' will be renamed in future then.

Some posters have (rightly imo) widened this into issues around institutional sexism. Caroline Criado Perez’s book ‘Invisible Women’ is excellent on this issue - about the invisibility of women in much research date which is used to shape our world. For example, women receive more serious injuries in car accidents because the various safety features were only tested on male bodies. This isn’t about individuals being sexist but about institutions and mind sets being male oriented albeit unconsciously. I would also say that disabled people are often invisible in how many aspects of everyday life and systems work. There has been much progress of course but it’s constantly important to try to ensure that all the various groups within society are considered whether we are diagnosing health problems, seat belts, which way a door opens or whatever

I can't help thinking why has this taken so long? Reading the article it seems it has been a black student who has produced a booklet detailing how black skin presents in illness. It really can't be anything else other than institutionalised racism. Fortuately there seem to be people willing to change things.

When I first read this a few days ago I thought it would be a good idea for our doctors to go to a country where dark skins prevail such as South Africa and be trained there for say a 12 month period so that they could get plenty of proper experience.

Yes that's a really good point about people with disabilities. When people park across pavements I dont think they are being deliberately prejudiced it's just people with disabilities and the difficulties they face in simply navigating a street have never even crossed their minds. Whether deliberate or not the impact of making life worse for people with disabilities is the same

My daughter, a doctor, did her elective in the Philippines where she worked with and treated people who were a different skin colour than herself.

maddyone

My daughter, a doctor, did her elective in the Philippines where she worked with and treated people who were a different skin colour than herself.

Good for her.

Hopefully medical texts in traditionally white countries will catch up to that level of enterprising.

Ulysses - Tennyson

We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven; that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

So if you are stopped from using commonly known terms such as 'blue tinge' or 'yellowing of the skin' to denote health problems in white/fair skinned patients what does that lead to? .

Why is there no common sense involved?

Patients with varying colour of skin will inevitably have variable signs of their health problems. That is merely stating the obvious. It is not racially motivated nor colonialism to state the bleeding obvious.

I mentioned the fact Vitiligo visually causes white patches and is not so easy to detect in white skin as opposed to those of darker skin? Is that a racist /colonialist opinion also?

What is the point of trying to ban a common sense, appropriate use of knowledge as to what/how an illness manifests itself in various skin colours.

If this gained traction it is only putting white/pale skinned patients at possible risk and undoes all knowledge of patient care/treatment/diagnosis.

Sometimes there is a simplistic, glaringly obvious reason why the using of terms such as ' blue tinge' 'yellowing of the skin' is used and it is nothing to do with racism or colonialism.

Could a doctor put lives at risk because they cannot use the term ' blue tinge' to denote possible heart failure ?

What should they say or do when diagnosing white/pale skinned patients to appraise the situation in front of them if not exactly what they see? That makes no sense and goes beyond any logic to the point of endangering lives.

If it is true medical students are not being taught how to diagnose illness in dark skinned patients then that is the fault of the profession. Do I believe that is true, I struggle to believe that to be honest.