A Labour government would have made a mess of covid too.

I too think the results would have been better with May than with Johnson.
May would have got hold of things sooner - I feel as Johnson is too keen on being liked - and she wouldn't have been so equivocal about masks and travel early on.

Regarding the labour party - I think it would have been pilloried if it had introduced the furlough scheme but would like to think it would have done something like it. I'm sure it would have made an entirely different set of mistakes but believe it would have learned from Italy quicker - and would have shut down sooner, not introduced the "eat out" scheme and would have actually delivered on the laptop promise had they made one.

People keep saying Labour would have done better because there is no way of proving either that they would or they wouldn’t.
One thing about this pandemic is that it means I have felt obliged to read a lot more about politics and what went on during different parties terms in power to try and verify everything some GN’s seem to know.
Things like, cash for questions, changing gifts to the (any) party into loans to make them less suspect, giving jobs or contracts to people who support them monetarily etc.
The only thing that has really changed us the creation of new words to describe these actions.

Well, you don’t have to pay any regard to what I think Ian64
You don’t have to listen at all.

Except I am one of the electorate. A potential Labour voter wanting to be persuaded.

So I’m waiting for something. Anything.

There is no solid reason to think that Labour would have done any better either MaizieD ?

That isn't the question that is being asked here. What is being asked for is a solid rationale. Without that the comments about Labour aren't worth even reading...

Marmardoit's response which you applaud didn't answer it, either.

I posted this on another thread but I think it's relevant here, too...

www.linkedin.com/pulse/lies-we-tell-ourselves-james-patrick/?published=t

Mamardoit

But we are not NZ. We are one of the most over crowded islands on the planet. We are also in normal times a major travel hub. The only people travelling to NZ are people going there. We really cannot compare the UK to NZ.

You are right they did make mistakes with the contracts, but who knows what decisions Corbyn would have made.

The UK has a population density of 280 per square km. There are 31 other countries with a higher population density, eg Macau with about 21,000 per square km or Singapore 8,000 per square km.

There are many countries comparable to UK which have higher population densities which have done much much better in controlling the virus.

Whereas we have had about 116,000 deaths so far (out of a population of 67 million), Japan with a population of 126 million and density 33 per square km has had only 6,863 deaths and Vietnam with a population density a bit bigger than ours has had 35 deaths - yes only 35 out of a population of 96 million.

Correction -Japan has about 333 people per square km, not just 33. Sorry.

well said Muse.

The only thing I would add is that I am convinced that the Labour Party would have put people before profit. Their manifesto is grounded on justice and fairness. The Tories are all about Brexit, personal safety, security and wealth and of course running down the Labour party and the Scot Nats (who terrify them)..

Any government would have struggled, but I suspect a Labour government would not have been so heavily into the jobs for the boys, and maybe they would not have accepted their leader buffooning around ("I shook hands with everyone!", eat-out-to-help-out, an apology for a track and trace system, "of course it is safe for schools to open" - and then, having got them all back to exchange their Christmas holiday germs, suddenly it wasn't - well, who would have thought?; failing to close the borders at the beginning.....and so it goes on....and on.......and on).

I do not feel any need to make excuses for them - what we needed was a statesman/woman with some gravitas - and look what we got instead!

I listened to a Labour shadow minister blaming the current government for the number of deaths. She said that there should have been a more immediate shutdown of businesses to save lives.

However, she then went on to say that the current lockdown is ruining the economy and businesses should be reopened now to prevent further damage to the economy.

Of course mistakes have been made and, as has been said before, that is easy to say with the benefit of hindsight. I don’t think there is any government who would have got it all right while trying to balance the damage from the virus against the damage to the economy. The d vil and the deep blue sea comes to mind

Devil

They would have put people's health above profit and not been hellbent on "reopening the economy" at the expense of peoples health.

But they have tried to find a balance, albeit not always quite right but no one has a crystal ball. Or would it be better to let the country go completely bankrupt with no jobs and no money? It has to be a balancing act to pay for all those doctors and nurses.

That’s what I mean about being non-entities Tweedle.

All I’ve heard from Labour, when somebody does stir themselves to say something, is criticism of what’s happening at the moment. When the government policies change or u turn, the criticism does too.

It’s all reactive, nothing proactive, nothing thought through for themselves. Criticism is easy if you avoid saying what you would instead.

Now is the moment for Labour to be making an impact. Now is when they people should be saying I wish Labour was in charge.

Instead they’re saying “Who?” I doubt one in a hundred thousand could tell you who the Labour shadow health minister is, or the shadow chancellor.

It is about underlying values that drive the decision making.

The current cabinet, who may not represent all Conservatives, any more that the opposition front bench represents all Labour voters, have a particular view of political liberalism that has driven some decisions that I think have not minimised the impact of the pandemic as well as it could

I think that centrist Starmer does not espouse that philosophy and that would have meant some different decisions being taken & different way of handling of the crisis.

It is impossible to know, as fact, that things would have had better outcomes. But I think the underlying values & the personalities of current Labour politicians would have meant more measured responses with citizens health prioritised.

Why do people keep saying it, then?

Because they’re only expressing an opinion, and it’s what they want to believe. .
That’s different from stating a fact which needs to be backed up with evidence.

It’s all reactive, nothing proactive, nothing thought through for themselves. Criticism is easy if you avoid saying what you would instead.

I think if you look at what Labour has actually said you'll find that Starmer called for for action on a number of occasions well before the government actually did anything. For instance, he called for a 'circuit breaker' over the autumn half term when Williamson was threatening prosecution for schools that closed early. And He called for the latest lock down about 3 weeks before the government actually did it. It's in Hansard if people want to check. He's called for support for the 3 million people not covered by the furlough scheme or schemes for the self employed.

Don't think that Labour is just being 'reactive' because it isn't true.

Tweedle the statement you refer to could well stand and be logical.

If those in charge had been swifter and firmer at the start of the pandemic we may not be in this ongoing situation today that is damaging the economy.

Of course we can not know for certain but it is possible to look at different management approaches of the pandemic, by other nations, and surmise how similar decision/actions might have impacted in UK. People do it in every other aspect of life..so natural to do it with the pandemic.

It is all to do with the will to lessen the divisions in or society as opposed to making money for yourself and your mates. This government were elected on Brexit- nothing else.
When the pandemic struck they were caught with their pants down because Brexit was their only focus.
Jeremy Hunt admitted this country was not prepared for a pandemic of this proportion- why?
Because of ten years of austerity bleeding away our public services, wages and education system to line the coffers of a privileged few.
No one knows what Labour would have done because they have not been in power for ten years and people have forgotten what life was like before the Tories came and took all our money and blamed Labour.
Makes me angry that people still believe in media hype and hysteria instead of thinking for themselves.

Peasblossom

That’s what I mean about being non-entities Tweedle.

All I’ve heard from Labour, when somebody does stir themselves to say something, is criticism of what’s happening at the moment. When the government policies change or u turn, the criticism does too.

It’s all reactive, nothing proactive, nothing thought through for themselves. Criticism is easy if you avoid saying what you would instead.

Now is the moment for Labour to be making an impact. Now is when they people should be saying I wish Labour was in charge.

Instead they’re saying “Who?” I doubt one in a hundred thousand could tell you who the Labour shadow health minister is, or the shadow chancellor.

Wow! I don't think I've ever been one in a hundred thousand before!

Exactly so keepingquiet

We cannot possibly know how the Labour party would have reacted to this pandemic, but we can have a good guess at how the Murdoch press would have reacted. Can you imagine the response to furlough? It would have been described as typical Labour spend, spend, spend. I don't think Labour would have had their noses in the trough quite as blatantly as the current Johnson administration either, and although many countries were caught 'on the hop'when it came to PPE etc., I would like to think that Labour would have contracted increased production to the existing manufacturers in the UK, many of whom were reported as having put forward their services and hearing nothing back. I would like to think that Labour would not employ some socialite interior designer to source PPE, would not have employed the appalling Dido Harding, she of the reverse Midas touch who was responsible for the biggest data breach in British corporate history when she headed up Talktalk, a company which is a byword for atrocious customer service, a Labour government would have rewarded NHS staff properly, not just encouraged the public to clap for them, a Labour government would have rolled out broadband to homes, supplied adequate laptops, and made sure that families were able to keep their children warm, fed and educated during lockdown. No, we cannot know what they would have done, and I was no fan of Corbyn, but Johnson is absolutely not up to the job. Is that enough reasons?

Would Labour have given £170,000 to a porn site?

Mamardoit

They wouldn't have been able to source more PPE. Every other country was scrambling to try and buy it in. The same with the number of nurses and doctors. They can't be trained in days. So they would have been in the same position as the tory government.

Would the same scientists have been giving the advice? I don't think any of the labour front bench would have been expert enough to question the given advice so I 'm sure they would have done pretty much the same things. We can't say whether they would have locked down earlier. That is something that is very easy to say in hindsight from the opposition bench.

Also it wouldn't have been KS as PM. Jeremy Corbyn was the worst ever leader of the opposition. Personally I don't think he would have been any use in a crisis.

What is your opinion of the cronyism and the millions wasted on PPE that was unsatisfactory?

As for sourcing more PPE there were several manufacturers that came forward to state that they could make it and contacted the govt who had ignored them.

Oh my... what have I missed now growstuff

Peasblossom

I’ve been disappointed that Labour have just kept their heads down and not made any constructive suggestions. I know they didn’t and don’t have the power to do anything but they didn’t have any alternatives either.

I’d like to vote Labour at the next election but, as yet, I can’t see any reason for doing so.

If they could come up with a plan for what should happen now, put themselves on the line so I could make a judgement, that might help.

At the moment it’s like they don’t exist.

If Labour had come up with different solutions they would have been accused of playing party politics.