Shocked by the news from Colorado

Why don’t they do something about it ? That is the question most people are asking. When little kids can get a gun, they have a problem. None of their politicians has the guts to sort it out.

My relative (originally British but 25 years in the States including 15 in Boulder) has told of his sadness at this massacre. He is anti-gun but now says he is more concerned than ever for his children's safety. The children have lockdown practice in school!

16 officers for 1600 residents. It doesn’t appear to be a hotbed of crime though.

Ah no, the chef just runs a business there. I thought for a minute it was another Necker Island.

Maybe check again on the NZ figure while you’re there? The one you quote is for Niue, which appears to be an island in the South Pacific, owned by a New Zealand born chef.

Lets look at this chart. England and Wales is #38 in police presence. The US #141.

Yes. Because it’s in alphabetical order. You might want to look again at the figures.

freedomfromthepast

Lets compare it to a city in New Zealand. A country with virtually no guns. Niue. They have 1088 officers per 100,000.

Denver has 242 officers per 100,000.

Lets look at this chart.

England and Wales is #38 in police presence. The US #141.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_dependencies_by_number_of_police_officers

Want me to keep going? Or maybe you all could respect the fact that in the US, our population both in numbers and diversity is different so our self protection needs would be different and that your opinions are based on how life is in the UK, not in the US?

How much is spent on police services are political decisions which are not immutable. It’s not inevitable to have lower numbers of police and more guns to make up for that. I have US friends ( as many do on GN). Their views on gun control are much closer to mine than they are to yours.

Maybe they have more problems in NZ. I doubt it ,though. Australia doesn’t have many at all. We would be totally horrified if we had the amount of gun crimes they have in the US. So would most countries but they will not move away from the pioneer idea of a right to bear arms. Still stuck in the 18 th century.

Lets compare it to a city in New Zealand. A country with virtually no guns. Niue. They have 1088 officers per 100,000.

Denver has 242 officers per 100,000.

Lets look at this chart.

England and Wales is #38 in police presence. The US #141.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_dependencies_by_number_of_police_officers

Want me to keep going? Or maybe you all could respect the fact that in the US, our population both in numbers and diversity is different so our self protection needs would be different and that your opinions are based on how life is in the UK, not in the US?

freedomfromthepast

Shandy57

That seems to be the bottom line Chesnut. My British friend in California said her neighbour told her she has a gun so if a criminal shoots at her, she can shoot back. Thing is, where are the police? Why is everyone so scared for their life?

You ask a good question. The US has a population of over 330 million. Our land mass is also greater that Europe.

Here are stats of officers to citizens for large US cities. Lets just look at Denver Colorado, since it is a city close to Boulder. This is even old data from 2010.

DenverColorado607,0511,7051,47028.124.2

There are 24.2 officers for every 607,051 citizens.

And big cities all around the country are now defunding the police. Which means less police officers per capita.

This year alone, gun ownership in the US has skyrocketed. I know, a fact that is hard not believe. People who have typically been anti-gun are now buying them. It is so bad here that gun manufacturers cant keep up.

Sorry, my information was incorrect. My mind read 10k as 100K.

There were 24.2 officers for every 10,000 citizens in Denver.

For more information, this is a good article. It states that

"The generally accepted police to civilian ratio is 1:450 or approximately 225 police officers for every 100,000 people. There is no written or recommended ratio because societies differ in levels of crime, however, it is necessary for jurisdictions to have a good balance of police per given population so as not to strain the police service or leave citizens unprotected. Highly volatile societies definitely need more policemen than the relatively peaceful ones. Relatively peaceful and secure societies may need an additional police presence to protect institutions or places of interests. The Vatican, the Pitcairn Islands, and the Palestinian Authority are examples of jurisdictions with a high number of police officers per capita."

I have no idea who made this decision. But 225 per 100,000 vs the 24.2 for 607,000 is a huge difference.

www.worldatlas.com/articles/countries-with-the-most-police-officers-per-capita.html

Sorry, I forgot to post my resource link

www.governing.com/archive/law-enforcement-police-department-employee-totals-for-cities.html

Shandy57

That seems to be the bottom line Chesnut. My British friend in California said her neighbour told her she has a gun so if a criminal shoots at her, she can shoot back. Thing is, where are the police? Why is everyone so scared for their life?

You ask a good question. The US has a population of over 330 million. Our land mass is also greater that Europe.

Here are stats of officers to citizens for large US cities. Lets just look at Denver Colorado, since it is a city close to Boulder. This is even old data from 2010.

DenverColorado607,0511,7051,47028.124.2

There are 24.2 officers for every 607,051 citizens.

And big cities all around the country are now defunding the police. Which means less police officers per capita.

This year alone, gun ownership in the US has skyrocketed. I know, a fact that is hard not believe. People who have typically been anti-gun are now buying them. It is so bad here that gun manufacturers cant keep up.

Chestnut:

I didnt say that guns kill people is an opinion. That is a fact that cant be disputed.

"It therefore has no place in the modern world except for hunting, protection from dangerous animals in the wild, or for the Police or armed services."

THIS is an opinion, not fact. One that you and I don't share.

I have given several examples of why people in the US own guns. It matters not to me if you agree with it or not. Because it is your opinion. Mine is different.

And yes, my scenario IS valid to this discussion. Your opinion is that guns should only be owned for hunting and protection from dangerous wild animals and the police. If your opinion mattered my husband the gun collector would not be able to own his guns.

The fact is that the majority of legal gun owners in the US do not kill people. The same as the majority of people who drive cars dont kill people.

Yes there needs to be sensible gun laws in the US. the majority of people, even conservatives, agree with that. But Colorado has some of the strictest gun laws in the US and yet has had more than its fair share of mass shootings.

One solution is to take away everyone's guns. But I have shown why that isn't a viable solution. Constitutional change isn't simply "just done" Because of the way our Constitution works.

So, please, tell me what your idea is to curb gun violence in a country you don't live in. I am all ears. Maybe you can solve it!

Be sure to include your ideas for curbing the crime that makes residents feel the need to protect themselves. And of course, I am sure you will come up with something that will ensure the criminals will give up thier guns too.

You can start in Chicago.

"Other numbers in Chicago also are markedly higher than a year ago: 4,115 people shot. 11,280 illegal guns seized. 7,236 gun arrests."

chicago.suntimes.com/2020/12/30/22206618/chicago-gun-violence-homicides-policing-community-outreach-university-of-chicago-crime-lab-editorial

MaizieD: I am not the one who said the monarchy doesn't kill. It absolutely does. Or it sends people out on its behalf. People still die. Which is the point isn't it? The fact that people die?

I also never said my country's government never kills. Way to much IMO. I think that we should mind our own business and take care of ourselves, but then I hear about living in a Global society. Cant win.

The discussion I was having was in regards to culture. The monarchy is an age old institution that is also part of your culture. Gun ownership is written into our constitution and is also part of our culture.

freedomfromthepast

MaizieD: By the way. Yes, it has.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/worst-atrocities-british-empire-amritsar-boer-war-concentration-camp-mau-mau-a6821756.html

I don't think that Queen Victoria or Edward VII personally went out and killed people in India and South Africa.

OTH, if we're going to start comparing our nations' respective wars and massacres I think we'd be on pretty dodgy ground.

That seems to be the bottom line Chesnut. My British friend in California said her neighbour told her she has a gun so if a criminal shoots at her, she can shoot back. Thing is, where are the police? Why is everyone so scared for their life?

MaizieD

^You don't understand our love of guns in the US. Ok. I don't understand your love of the monarchy.^

At least our monarchy doesn't kill anyone...

If the Amereicans want to cling to their guns on the basis of a 200+ years old piece of parchment then let them stick to 200+ years old arms. Whilst I know that in the very remote parts of the US there is a need for guns to protect oneself there is no need for military grade automatic weapons that are more common in Afghanistan.

I know it sounds callous but I always think if the Americans can't be bothered to sort out the problem, why should I care? They trot out their interpretation of the 2nd Amendment as though there had never been adjustments to the Constitution.

Freedom I am not so much giving an opinion as stating facts, i.e. a gun is a lethal weapon and is designed to kill. That is not an opinion, it is a fact. So saying I am entitled to my opinion is incorrect.
You keep mentioning your husband, who goes hunting and does target practice. Your family activities are not relevant to this discussion. You are just one family in millions, I'm sure you keep your guns locked up etc. and no-one is disputing that or suggesting you do anything wrong with regard to gun keeping. It does not relate to a discussion about guns in general, because there are probably millions of people who are not responsible like you.
It's rather like a discussion on dangerous dogs mauling children, to which you respond that your dog is well behaved and under control. Not relevant.
So in order to protect yourselves from criminals with guns it seems the answer is to arm everyone with guns.

MaizieD: By the way. Yes, it has.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/worst-atrocities-british-empire-amritsar-boer-war-concentration-camp-mau-mau-a6821756.html

I always love when people present gallup polls as evidence.

This results are from a poll of 1,035 people. We have a population of over 330 million.

So out of that 1035 people, 32% own a gun. Not representative of actual gun ownership. especially this year when gun sales have skyrocketed due to the civil unrest.

I am not here to change your minds about gun ownership. And honestly, until any of you move here and become citizens, you opinion doesn't mean squat to me.

But I hope that even one person sits back today and says to themselves, wow, am I looking at this with the lens of a sterotype? I also hope that even one person will read what I wrote and think, wow, now I understand better how the laws in the US work in regards to the rights of the people and our culture going back 245 years.

I have seen mentions of "religious right".

I have voted republican, democrat and 3rd party. I am an atheist. I believe in a women's right to choose. I believe in helping immigrants. I also believe in my individual right. I have a friend who is a Bernie Sanders supporter. She owns a gun.

My original post was in result specifically about the Boulder shooting. His family has known for years that he was paranoid and delusional. They did nothing. They knew 2 days before the shooting that he had a gun. They took it away and tried to hide it from him. If they weren't feeling safe with him having a gun, why didn't they call the police? This is why we have Red Flag Laws.

So yes, I blame this shooting on mental health. Not on the gun.

He planned on killing people. And if it wouldn't have been this gun it could have been a bomb. Or a truck.

MaizieD

^You don't understand our love of guns in the US. Ok. I don't understand your love of the monarchy.^

At least our monarchy doesn't kill anyone...

I love passive aggressive comments. It really shows that one doesn't have much to add to a discussion.

It is a moot point whether it would be easier for the UK to get rid of the monarchy or the USA to get rid of the guns.

You don't understand our love of guns in the US. Ok. I don't understand your love of the monarchy.

At least our monarchy doesn't kill anyone...

Most Americans do not own a gun or live in a household where someone owns a gun.

news.gallup.com/poll/264932/percentage-americans-own-guns.aspx

What is the difference between the gunowning minority and the majority of citizens in the USA?