Doctors want a 30% pay rise!

Very good posts foxie. And as growstuff says, the age of the population is a factor.

PS. And the age profile of the population.

foxie48

Not disagreeing with you Growstuff but difficult to do when there is a shortage of doctors. tbh I can't see things getting much better, there are huge shortages in psychiatry, General practice and Paeds with further shortages down the line because of the age profile of consultants in some specialisms. The NHS is in a bit of a mess really.

The Nuffield Trust (I think) wrote a report about the shortage of training places. I linked to it before somewhere, but I can't find it now. I don't think anybody is claiming there's any easy, quick fix solution, but it's a problem which can't be ignored. There has to be a commitment to planning and finance. It's not a new problem and the Conservatives have been in government for 12 years.

Our public services are all in a bit if a mess after years of austerity, underfunding and being treated like parasites by our governments

Not disagreeing with you Growstuff but difficult to do when there is a shortage of doctors. tbh I can't see things getting much better, there are huge shortages in psychiatry, General practice and Paeds with further shortages down the line because of the age profile of consultants in some specialisms. The NHS is in a bit of a mess really.

foxie48

1500 new training places were created in 2018 with five completely new med schools. Unfortunately, there were insufficient training places this year and over 700 graduates were without an F1 training post. It's not just about having more students it's also about having the capacity to support their on-going training and this relies on clinical placements with suitably qualified doctors to supervise and train and that is difficult to expand when there is already a shortage of doctors.

Which is exactly why strategic forward planning is needed.

1500 new training places were created in 2018 with five completely new med schools. Unfortunately, there were insufficient training places this year and over 700 graduates were without an F1 training post. It's not just about having more students it's also about having the capacity to support their on-going training and this relies on clinical placements with suitably qualified doctors to supervise and train and that is difficult to expand when there is already a shortage of doctors.

As for medical schools. We voted to leave the EU six years ago.
They must have seen then that we would need to train more domestic medical staff, but they did not put anything in place.

MaizieD said
" We don't have a problem of wages forcing price rises, we have a problem of people being so poorly paid that they can't afford anything more than the basics (and sometimes not even that). This is really bad news for the domestic economy because it means that they are not spending in the other businesses which provide what one might term 'less essential' services; hospitality, leisure, clothes, knick knacks etc. etc. thus putting them in danger of going out of business, or lay off staff, or at the least, the business owners not having money to spend on these services."

This is absolutely right. This Government is useless at thinking ahead about businesses. Ordinary people keep the economy going but they have to have enough disposable income to do so. Taking the cap away from bankers bonuses will not help the economy, raising public sector wages will.

growstuff

GrannyGravy13

Ilovecheese

You right wingers want a market led society and then object to paying market rates.

Not at all, I am all in favour of paying the right amount for the job.

As long as everyone realises that 30% pay increases will fuel inflation, force the B of E to increase interest rates, prices will rise in all sectors etc.

But how would it fuel inflation? Inflation isn't being caused by wages. Doctors don't produce anything which would cause higher prices of goods.

Neither do teachers, nurses or railway workers!

We already have price rises caused by fuel prices and supply problems caused by covid and Brexit. We don't have a problem of wages forcing price rises, we have a problem of people being so poorly paid that they can't afford anything more than the basics (and sometimes not even that). This is really bad news for the domestic economy because it means that they are not spending in the other businesses which provide what one might term 'less essential' services; hospitality, leisure, clothes, knick knacks etc. etc. thus putting them in danger of going out of business, or lay off staff, or at the least, the business owners not having money to spend on these services.

Raising interest rates is the most stupid thing the BoE has done because it means more expensive credit, particularly mortgages, which people cannot afford to pay, or will go deep into debt to try to pay.

Raising interest rates only has a chance of succeeding if there is too much money in the economy. Which there clearly isn't. It also encourages people who do have money to save, taking even more out of circulation in the domestic economy.

And tax increases for the already struggling Total economic illiteracy. Any tax increases should be on excessive profits and dividends, and wealth at the upper end of the scale.

The argument that the government needs the taxation to pay for public services is not only a falsehood (as I've said many times before) but, as the treasury is raking in massive amounts from higher fuel duties and VAT on higher priced goods, it is playing the population for fools...

Why is the government bent on impoverishing us?

I do wonder why people pick on doctors with regard to salary, for the level of training they have had, degree of responsibility and totally rubbish working conditions they are actually not paid that much. Daughter has a first class degree from a RG uni, a medical degree and 6 years of experience post qualification, she earns less than school friends, one is in recruitment, another sells software and another is a buyer. They haven't had to study for a single exam since they left uni, whereas daughter is still on the exam treadmill. They have weekends and evenings off, don't have to work holiday periods and have a regular working pattern so they can have a decent social life. They were all, of course, working for the four years when my daughter was doing her graduate med course racking up more debt! It's a good job she loves being a doctor and isn't in it for the money!! Oh and some people think they should be indentured to the NHS for several years post training! Well to a large extent doctors are stuck with staying in the NHS because that is how they progress their training in specialisms. They get training from more senior doctors and guess what, they train and take responsibility for doctors who are junior to them. I'm proud of my daughter being a doctor but I sometimes wish I'd suggested she work for a big pharma company, she'd certainly have an easier life and be paid more.

Its all gone quiet on the “Brexit will lead to a high wage economy” sound bite.

SueDonim

You can’t set up a med school just like that, though. It takes years of planning. As I said earlier, you need clinical places for students to learn and if there are no clinical places, you can’t offer training.

I know you can't. That's why I wrote that it needs planning, so the planning needs to start sooner rather than later.

SueDonim

Of my DD’s cohort of FY1&2 doctors, only three out of fifty are progressing on to further training and specialisms. The remaining forty seven are planning to move abroad, do better paid locum work, to take up non-clinical jobs or to leave the profession altogether.

In five years time, there will be a shortage of junior doctors that’s even worse than it is now. Will that mean taking more doctors from other countries thus depriving them of the skills needed for their own populations?

As for the State/private debate - we don’t demand teachers work in the state sector, or vets or dentists. Why single out doctors?

Ever has it been so I’m afraid. I’m not sure why doctors come in for so much criticism when they are among the most hardworking in society. When my son was a junior doctor he worked out how much he was getting paid an hour and it was less than I was paying my cleaner!
I have never forgiven Jeremy Hunt for the web of lies he spun about the junior doctors, it makes my blood boil even now.

If posters would take time to read what the BMA is stating; since 2008 their members have been awarded either 0% or 1% payrises, and the 30% figure is what they estimate is needed to bring their members to where they should be. But, the right wing press just turns on anyone; barristers, rail staff, 'lefty lawyers' NHS staff......one day they are encouraging the public to clap, now to demonise as greedy and unreasonable. Sadly, many of the guillible public are very willing to oblige.

You can’t set up a med school just like that, though. It takes years of planning. As I said earlier, you need clinical places for students to learn and if there are no clinical places, you can’t offer training.

How many hours are they working on those four days though Urmstongran? If (and this is usual) they are working twelve or more hours then they are working a full week. You really don’t want to be seen by a burned out doctor. Your friend has to be talking about fully trained doctors, junior doctors really do work some appalling hours.

IMO the state/private debate is a red herring and probably worth another thread. I can't blame any doctor for having a "portfolio" career, which almost certainly involves some work in the private sector, despite condemning any system which means that people can jump the queue by paying privately and means there are fewer staff available for the NHS. Quite simply, doctors will choose to work abroad if conditions are better.

I'll repeat ... currently, there are more foreign-trained doctors registering than those trained in the UK. The UK needs to train and keep more of its own doctors and stop relying on poaching from countries where their skills are needed.

This year, medical schools will accept fewer students than they have in the last two years. The A level fiascos over the last two years meant there was an increase, so this year the medical schools are cutting back because they don't have the capacity. This would have been the perfect time to increase the number of places available, but the balance books were more important. There are parts of the country with no medical schools, but it would require planning and finance to set up new ones. It would also have been one of the jigsaw pieces in the government's so-called levelling up agenda. But all this requires commitment! Hmm ...

Urmstongran

Ever since Labour gave them these ridiculous contracts it’s been a free for all.

The BMA is a trade union full stop, controlled by a vociferous left wing group.

Bit of a contradiction in your statements there? Surely as a 'right winger' and free marketeer you should be happy that doctors are able to negotiate as the market dictates? So, how does this tie in with your accusations of the BMA being a vociferous left wing group?

Of my DD’s cohort of FY1&2 doctors, only three out of fifty are progressing on to further training and specialisms. The remaining forty seven are planning to move abroad, do better paid locum work, to take up non-clinical jobs or to leave the profession altogether.

In five years time, there will be a shortage of junior doctors that’s even worse than it is now. Will that mean taking more doctors from other countries thus depriving them of the skills needed for their own populations?

As for the State/private debate - we don’t demand teachers work in the state sector, or vets or dentists. Why single out doctors?

And how does anybody decide "the right amount for the job"?

GrannyGravy13

Ilovecheese

You right wingers want a market led society and then object to paying market rates.

Not at all, I am all in favour of paying the right amount for the job.

As long as everyone realises that 30% pay increases will fuel inflation, force the B of E to increase interest rates, prices will rise in all sectors etc.

But how would it fuel inflation? Inflation isn't being caused by wages. Doctors don't produce anything which would cause higher prices of goods.

I’m sure it’s been said, so apologies, but I haven’t read all the posts. The increase would be spread over five years.

They are not asking for a 30% increase

How many times?

GrannyGravy13

Ilovecheese

You right wingers want a market led society and then object to paying market rates.

Not at all, I am all in favour of paying the right amount for the job.

As long as everyone realises that 30% pay increases will fuel inflation, force the B of E to increase interest rates, prices will rise in all sectors etc.

Yet again the public will bear the brunt of the government’s incompetence. If the public sector had been paid the going rate for the last 12 years there wouldn’t be an issue now.