Fascinating article

Couldn't open it, MiceElf! Wanted to...

Whoops missed out a forward slash

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/aug/19/giles-frazer-philosophical-investigations-wittgenstein

Well, that one is correct. I don't know why it's not working. You can get to it from The Guardian website.

I shall do that, in a minute...Thank you.

www.theguardian.com/profile/gilesfraser

Try this link - fraser not frazer

Just about to read paper copy ( how quaint). Am on long boring train journey

Thank you Bluebell. I'm broken as well as the link!

The most important thing is what you do not who you are "inside'

Philosophy is not about building intellectual foundations so much as creating better intellectual maps that reflect what people are doing when they say the things they do. Philosophers are not intellectual referees, arrogantly declaring certain ideas offside; they are more like therapists, trying to work out how muddles are created and how they can be undone. For both therapists and Wittgensteinian philosophers, attention is properly directed on what one does, how meaning is indexed to behaviour. Neither disciple is about the clever answers one can provide under cross-examination. Which is just as well – because I don't have them

Really thought provoking! Excellent

He is of course right that people who have a faith do not have all the answers and that it is pointless to challenge them in this vein. But sadly there are some believers (in many religions) who do not have Fraser's liberal and open-minded attitiude - they KNOW that they are right! These are the chaps that scare the s**t out of me!

Most of my religious friends acknowledge that their beliefs are not necessarily based upon fact and recognise that the foundation of their faith is something else entirely.....something that cannot necessarily be picked apart, as many agnostics and atheists would understandably wish to do. I do not pretend to understand this, but accept it as a fact - the people involved are decent and kind and are good friends of mine. We happily agree to differ. And I acknowledge that I have no idea what this "something else" is.

"He Knew He Was Right" ... not necessarily Trollope, go back a lot further and you find Aristotle teaching that women had fewer teeth than men. He considered that a fact - he KNEW it. Of course he could have asked his wife or some other accommodating Greek lady to open her kisser and let him count them, but no, he KNEW... And when someone tells you that about their 'faith', it might be worth considering moving away a bit, as they aren't going to be amenable to argument.

I enjoy reading or listening to Giles Fraser, another open minded Church of England priest is Richard Coles who hosts Saturday Morning Live on Radio 4.

I believe that religions begin after someone has a deep spiritual experience, but its difficult for later followers who rely on interpreting early writings or tradition without the founders presence. Of course experiences still happen, near death, mystical, psychedelic etc. they can be life changing, but tend to make people more caring and open, definitely not fundamentalist about their views.

We live in a multicultural society, a good read is The World's Religions by Huston Smith, its a classic, sort of Cooks Tour that concentrates on the best of that religion, over 50 years old but has been revised, the preface alone is worth reading.

I enjoy Giles Fraser and like Mice, I agree with his concern about children who are constantly provided with entertainment and distractions.
I do have faith but don't talk about it much, though I do reflect on it lots. I'm always wary of individuals, or groups, who isolate themselves and follow fundamentalist views. My tolerance is also stretched by folks who are simply rude and objectionable about people of faith.
Fettlebaum, you could well be right in advising people to move away if someone starts to tell you about their faith. I love to talk about faith/politics etc, but there are some people where you absolutely know they won't be amenable to any ideas that don't accord with their own world view. That's the time to make your excuses I think.

My local church holds Theology in the Pub sessions, differing views don't seem to matter but perhaps a drink and a meal in a public place helps.

@Iam64 - It's the people who employ the 'I just KNOW' tactic that I advise you to avoid...

People have a right to believe what they want to believe - fair enough. But belief without a reason, other than a spot of wishful thinking, gets us nowhere.

Years go when various organisations and businesses were beginning to use T groups my husband had to go on a weeks course. It was in a lovely setting so I went with him for a break but was invited to take part in some of the sessions.

In a group where we had to draw our impressions of other members, one man, a fundamentalist, was portrayed in versions of a wall with a trumpet blaring from behind it.

We were shocked and he realised that that was how he came across. The feelings of the group changed ( he had been infuriating!) there was immediate sympathy, people came alongside, and I know that counselling was available. I hope it helped him to explore the reasons behind his need for certainty.

Many years ago when I was aged 23,I was listening to the radio one Sunday evening,it was 6 40pm (sitting on the dock of the bay) was playing .I was idly looking out of the window when i saw a face appear in the clouds not the clouds forming a shape,it got clearer and shone brilliantly,I was scared and looked away.I looked back with beating heart,and it gradually faded away.Know one was in the house,I told my family when they returned,and they laughed,as have others looked at me with disbelief.The strange thing is I was agnostic,but that day I saw Jesus I will never forget it,I just don't know why it happened I didn't become religious,don't go to church.has anyone else had similar experience.

People interpret these things in different ways. I think I would have been happy to just enjoy the natural phenomenon created by the light and the water vapour in the clouds. Humans seek for patterns in the things around them. This is an interesting link from Scientific American: www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=patternicity-finding-meaningful-patterns