Would you opt out of your 'religion' if you had to pay extra 2.5% tax

I don't see how this tax you are talking about can be used to fund church activities and be collected and used by, the government.

Not that I'm greatly interested actually. Just seems odd.

Totally agree jingl- never said anything to the contrary have I?

Is it handed over to the various denominations in proportion to the number who have said that they are members of each group?

Who writes your Ecumenical News?

ooops post crossed- the tax is not used at all by the Government- it is raised with other taxes, and goes directly to the Churches for their running costs. So let's say you pay tax at, 20%- they add 2.3% for your Church (this exact % varies from place to place- 2.3% is what it is here where I live) - so you pay 22.3%- 2.3% being passed directly to your Church (eg the Synod/diocese for your region/County).

www.ecumenicalnews.com

Are you sure it's not just used to preserve ancient church buildings? That would make sense. But 'church activities' for me are giving support in the community.

Surely it would be up to the individual priest to decide who he/she administers to. Would money really be part of that decision?

There is plenty to spend money on in a parish.

In any country, every congregation has a vicar, who needs a salary and a house to live in. The house has to be maintained and the vicar's car has to be serviced and kept full of petrol for his visits.

The church building, whether it is a crumbling ancient monument, a new building or a tin shed with no insulation, has to be heated, cleaned, the roof fixed, and so on.
The church halls where the other "church activities" go on also have to be heated, cleaned, maintained. Communion supplies cost money. People in distress with no home or no money turn to the church, and are fed or given a donation.

The government law in Germany will have been inherited from the ancient church tithing law.

No, the buildings here are heated and maintained by the Council (both Protestant and Catholic) - despite the dwindling number who attend (and I imagine, looking at the figures, that it won't be long before people start questioning this- it's very expensive)- the tax money goes for the running of the Church, as Elegran describes- as well as all the activities run for disabled, elderly, chaplaincy in OAP homes and hospitals, etc, etc.

Now the local Churches are in a terrible quandry- yes of course they want to be welcoming to all, and support those in need, in times of grief and for funerals, and to encourage mariage, etc, etc. And of course those faithfuls who pay the tax want to welcome all with open arms- and yet- as they have to do more and more fundraising to support Church activities as their tax, due to the fact so few pay it, just do not cover costs- as much as they do not want to criticise, and to continue to have open doors- they are scratching their heads and hearts wondering why people who do want to partake somehow are not prepared to contribute- and leave the few to do all the hard work and pay too. Can't you see how that makes them feel?
And how the Vicar feels when asked to do a funeral service, and told to keep the religious stuff out!?! Couples are interviewed about their faith in the mariage preparation course- and many go through he motions and give the 'right' answers and attend for a few week before, and hopefully after.. and then... stop attending, and paying too. Then of course expect children to be baptised (and you are right, baptism is NEVER) refused- neither are funeral services, and weddings very rarely (only if it is toooo obvious that the couple has no belief whatsoever).

Again, think of the Golf Club example. Just not fair.

Of course jingl, much of it is 'support to and in the community' - but it costs thousands, in salaries, cars, minibus, heating, maintenance of property used for such, etc, etc'. Who do you think pays for that in your area- when it is Church led and provided?

I wish you wouldn't say things like, "can't you see...". Sounds mildly insulting. As if the other person is stupid.

See. You're doing it again.

Leaving thread.

Paid for by those who attend regularly, who clean the church, do the flowers, repair kneelers and alter cloths, polish the brass, run fund raising coffee mornings and provide the eats, hold Christmas tea parties for the lonely and provide the eats, have a soup run over Christmas with flasks of scotch broth for the elderly and yes ingredients provided by the soup runners, keep a drop in centre open for those who need support , advice or even a hug or a fridge. Not forgetting the holly morning, no not holy ,holly, which means going onto farms ,with permission, cutting the damn stuff, tying it up and selling it , the Christmas fayre run by the same volunteers with the money divided between local charities and repairs in the church, even church loos get blocked . These are the people who are often told I am a good a Christian as you but can to be bothered to support the church, don't go to church .

And let's not forget the cost of heating for choirs who just loved to use the church to perform in

So sorry jingl if 'can't you see' has upset you. I would edit it out, but can't.

You've asked questions on how it's done, and I've tried to answer, best I could- even if clumsily. I did explain that this tax is not for Church buildings and maintenance quite clearly, and that this is done by the Council (at general tax payers' expense, be they believers or Church goers, irrespectively) and yet you still question this and says' are you sure it's not for buildings?' - which could also be perceived as vaguely insulting and/or saying I'm stupid- lol, no offence taken. I just repeated that it's not, without getting uppity about it, or offended.

Nice post, jura.

Yes Annie, and on and on and on- huge amounts of efforts and time. I have huge respect for the people in our Parish (yes, I'm afraid, mainly ladies, but not all.

There is also a group (and yes, mainly men- I do live in a rural area and traditions endure- who give up time and their care to drive people to hospital for chemo, radiotherapy and other appointments to ophtalmologist, diabetic footcare, etc. NO ambulances here for non urgent medical care), and there is anotehr group, quite mixed, who go out to read to the elderly or those with sight problems, or just visit the frail and lonely, especially. VERY few are not regular Church goers actually. They used to be paid mileage, but no longer, as the money is no longer there.

The monthly luncheon for the elderly of the Parish would have had to be cancelled, if ti wasn't for the fact that the new owners of the Vicarage (it just had to be sold- no way could the Church maintain all the village Vicarages with so few paying the tax) had not agreed to allow this to continue, totally free of charge and help with cooking, serving, cleaning, maintenance and heating cost (like replacing the diswasher last month out of pocket) etc. Much to the surprise of the Church goers, the new owners are not even Church attenders or believers. But they do appreciate it, I can tell you.

I didn't understand why you were upset either, jings. jura has given factual accounts as far as she's able.

I think some church buildings should be preserved by "the general purse" because they are historically and culturally important. Even atheists appreciate their religious history and its cultural effects.

I am a wee bit confused by this thread but think I know what Anniebach is getting at. I would put another opinion into this debate.

I do believe in God but left my church some years ago over things that I cannot put on here.
What I will say is, if Christian churches were more welcoming to certain communities of people, perhaps they would find that people would come. If they were also truthful to themselves and tackled issues within the church that need addressing, they may find attendance improved.
It saddened me to leave my church but I really could no longer stand the priest we had (and this person caused REAL difficulty for many people) so I left. The good Christians from this church now pass me in the street without as much as a 'Hi, how are you?'. I was not the only one who left and in all honesty many, many good and decent people have left their church/denomination because the churches are unwelcoming(also too many cliques) and I for one think there is too much religion in churches and not a helluva lot of Christianity. This is the church's loss. I've come across a lot of people who think they are somehow superior, because they attend church and you do not.
This in no way affects my belief in God. I very seldom post on political or religious threads as it usually causes animosity. I think though the church should have got it's head out of the sand and tackled things years ago. I, for one am glad that the church does not have the power over people it did have. Having said this ALL religions/denominations have problems of one sort or another.

What I do find ridiculous is if people do not want a religious service, why get buried from the church, go and get a Humanist service. If you don't want religion, do not go to a church.
One other thing Anniebach, I thought for Baptisms, Weddings, Funerals, is there not a stipend paid? Used to be the case in my church , it was not a compulsory thing but more a recognition/ courtesy to the priest for the service etc.

In Denmark you can opt out of paying Church Tax by checking a box on your tax form. However, this does not prevent you from attending any church services. However, apparently it is easier for a camel to get through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to get into heaven. So, if those are your aspirations it makes sense to give as much of your money as you can to the church (synagogue, mosque or whatever).

"Can't you see..." smacks of desperation. As if you're having a hard job getting your point across to me.

Never mind.

Can't actually say I'm upset Bags.

Cher, I am sorry you had to leave your church and do understand why you did , is there no other church in you area ? So wrong you are denied what you wanted from your church

Cher, I am so sorry too. But as Annie says, you could have gone to another Church, in another location, or even change denomination- if your Faith is important to you. Not always easy in the Olde days and in small villages- my dad was a very good Catholic, went to Mass every Sunday and joined in all the activities. He was unformally excommunicated and excluded when he fell in love with my mum, a Protestant, divorced with a young child. Both Churches, families and communities put them through hell- and they had to leave the village. Dad never did reconcile himself with the Catholic Church until the Priests and the old generation involved died- and then one of my cousin's brought dad back in the fold, as it were, via the Male Choir- which I know was of great comfort to dad.

But nowadays it would be 'simple' to go to another Church or denomination and be welcomed with open arms. Must say I always found it very strange when people said things like 'I don't believe anymore because the Vicar was rude to me- or because I don't like the new Vicar, etc' Surely Faith is way beyond the personalities on individuals. Where I lived in the UK, there was a big merry go round of people and families driving out of their village and into another one, and vice-versa- because of the personality of the Vicar. In our village the Vicar was very much against the Ordination of women, whereas the younger one of the next village 5 miles away was for- so there was this exchange every Sunday- which I found a bit bizarre, I have to say.

But we digress.

So yes, or no. Would you put your name as CofE or Catholic, or Christian, if it meant paying for it through your extra taxes?

The story about your parents reminds me of one about my great aunt, jura. Her Catholic husband deserted her and two small children. A while later she married another man, I presume in a register office. I don't know if she divorced first husband or if the marriage was annulled but at any rate it was a lasting hurt to her that the RC Church would not give her second marriage (which was lovely, and husb2 adopted the children and brought them up as his own) a blessing. Not much to ask, you'd think.

They finally did after husb1 died. Thanks a bunch thought auntie.