wind turbines

I'm at a loss to understand why so many people think we have "messed up the planet in every possible way". There are any number of web sources of stunningly beautiful photographs from around our planet. I do not think humans are a bad species. If you think about our achievements and the fact that we strive to improve things (and tidy up our messes) all the time, it puts a whole new, positive outlook on things.

I agree with FlicketyB that we have been sadly misled about wind turbines and how good they are. I've no objection to them in principle but right now they are exremely wasteful (not to mentiion damaging to wildlife) and without huge subsidies by taxpayers would have fallen by the wayside (so to speak) long ago because no sensible business person would have invested the money, doomed planet or no doomed planet.

Anyway, it's not doomed, and neither are we.

As Numberplease puts it, I too find them strangely beautiful - especially the ones out at sea. But that's not the issue; we have to get on and do something about renewable energy sources. Having messed up the planet in every way possible, we now have to look after it and if we lose a scenic view, so be it.
I also think the efficient use of waste incinerators is a very practical start.

The main problem with wind farms is that they are inefficient, ineffective and can only produce power at an acceptable price because of the massive subsidies they receive from our taxation. They are green 'whitewash'. The average wind turbine is only producing power about 30 percent of the time. The rest of the time the wind is to high or too low. I have the dubious pleasure of living near two of the most inefficient wind farms in Britain. One of them produces power only 7% of the time. In addition wind turbines frequently are out of action when we most need them. Bitterly cold periods in Britain are usually accompanied by very still weather or high winds, both shut down wind turbines. Two years ago when we had sub-zero temperatures for two weeks DH or I drove past one wind farm on an almost daily basis, on not a single day was a blade moving or any power coming from the turbines.

Because of the inefficiency of wind power it is not possible to close more polluting power stations because they have to be available to come on power at any time to backup the power supply when wind turbines are not generating, which is 70 % of the time. In fact one wind farm operator is building a diesel-powered generator on an industrial site near me to help it meet its commitment to the national grid when its wind turbines are inactive.
kilowatt for kilowatt this new small generator will produce more air pollution than the adjacent large power station

Generating too much power from wind turbines also causes real problems for grid controllers. Wind does not blow at a steady rate, particularly at sea. The National Grid has to make sure it has a steady supply of power into the system at all times without sudden surges or power reductions. Wind turbines can go from ticking over to full power and back in minutes when the wind is gusting. Grid controllers in Denmark, where over 30% of their electricity comes from wind have compared running their grid system with riding a bucking bronco, exciting, but disaster could strike any moment. Wind power could make our grid system much more unstable with a higher probability of grid failures causing blackouts over large areas of the country.

Wind power has a part to play in meeting our renewables commitment, but only a small part. The Severn barrage could have reliably met a significant part of our renewables commitment, our local sewage works is feeding all the methane from its operations into the national gas transmission system, if all sewage works did this it would make a significant contribution, ditto if all councils collected food waste and produced biogas from it. Why are people so opposed to waste incinerators if the waste can be used for power generation? Denmark, the most sanctimoniously green country in Europe, has such waste incinerators in most towns and has no problems. And of course there is nuclear power......

I don't know much at all about wind turbines. There is one on its own in a field not far from us and I noticed that one day it was blowing like mad but the sails weren't turning which seemed very strange. It also seems yet again that wildlife which is part of the ecosystem that keeps the planet going is shoved into the background in favour of machines about which there is, I understand, controversial research.

I'm all for wind farms, and don't understand the fuss, I am sure they will work on the damage to wildlife problem. How are they going to tackle the noise problem?

There seems to be a problem with bats (see wildlife thread) but here is a posible solution copied from New Scientist.

Windy day

One solution could be to increase the minimum wind speed needed to set the blades in motion. Most bats are more active in low wind.

The study was funded by a number of bat conservation groups together with energy companies with a financial interest in wind energy, such as Shell Canada and Alberta Wind Energy.

Obviously they are working on it...

Turning off wind turbines during really high winds is not a problem as I see it. Leaving them on would be the problem.
I think we're getting a bit picky about this. We have to try all forms of renewable energy - its new science, new technology; in any case it is prudent to explore a variety of renewables so that we don't rely on only one source of energy. Hopefully, as time goes by a lot of the problems will be ironed out.

CC, I quote:
"there is not enough wind generated electricity going into the grid in this country yet to be a problem"

In that case why was it necessary to switch off Scottish wind turbines last winter during high winds? I read that it was for two reasons: (1) they were generating more electricity than the grid could handle, (2) the wind was too strong. Different occasions. Two fairly basic, important, and expensive problems.

I agree that these need to be sorted out and that we still have a way to go before it works well. The current Scottish government is very keen to lead the field on this. Good luck to them.

Baggiethecrust - I'm glad you are in favour of wind farms. However the technology will not advance unless and until we use it. There is a lot of research being done all over the world on energy storage so the wind turbines will not be sending energy straight into the grid for ever. The storage being researched includes several sorts of large batteries, compressed air storage; and pumped hydroelectric. In the meantime there is not enough wind generated electricity going into the grid in this country yet to be a problem. Also, with many sorts of renewable energy entering the grid (i.e. solar) there must be some balancing out. Also, it need stressing that we are better placed wind-wise than many countries like Germany who have many more wind farms than us - we have, in fact been lagging behind in this field.
The urgency of our energy and climate problems means we must go ahead with as many sorts of renewable ideas as possible and put more money into research. All of this does, of course, also provide many many jobs.

artygran, I agree. We all agree that there has to be a solution to finding alternative power sources. There are plenty of places away from residential property, lots of hills, lots of sea. I live on the North East coast and there are plans to puts a wind farm just off shore. I understand that there aee objections, but I wont be one of them. Its not that close to shore and, in my humble opinion, it shouldn't cause any noise pollution to any one. We have to wait and see...........
I do hope the people in Scotland who have homes near the wind farm farm find a solution.
Love and hugs

My son nearly had a home near a wind farm - a recent public enquiry saw planning consents refused on the grounds that it would be too intrusive. I understand from this morning's paper (yes, here I am, reading the papers again!) that, in an unprecedented move, a wind farm in Scotland has just been forced to shut down for a month because local residents said the 23 turbines made so much noise that it made their lives a misery. If the power company don't come up with a solution to the noise problem, the ban will be extended until they do. So there would seem to be issues around the noise that turbines produce, and around their cost effectiveness. Lots of work to do to make us all love them.

Anyone have a home near to a wind farm?

Zephrine; it was many years ago that we went to Delabole..at least 20 I would imagine, and they did change them afterwards. Where I live I'm surrounded ny power stations; when I first lived here I thought I would never get used to seeing them, but I soon didn't notice them We don't look at country views and feel horrified at the sight of a train track or a telegraph pole, because it isn't 'the shock of the new'.

Zephrine, fair comment but it depends which papers you read!

They might even be nostalgic for pylons and cement works.

Elegran, that thought has crossed my mind too! I also wonder if, in 2 or 3 hundred years' time, people will look at the windmils we're building now and think them rather cute.

I too think that wind turbines can look quite elegant, but I do understand how people don't like them interrupting their favourite view.

I wonder if the first builders of traditional windmills faced opposition from the neighbours?

I read a BBC report saying that one reason birds and bats are often found dead under wind turbines is because they are chasing the insects which are attracted to the turbines.

news.bbc.co.uk/earth/hi/earth_news/newsid_9067000/9067721.stm

The study found that the insects liked white or grey almost as much as they did yellow, but would be least likely to congregate around purple.

So we can look forward to gaily painted turbines !

But the researchers thought that the heat generated by the turbines might also play a part, and that the bats found them difficult to detect using their echolocation.

I think one of the RSPB's concerns is that the feeding grounds of sea birds might be disturbed by off-shore wind farms. They may be right. It is certainly worth checking. No point moaning about the damage we are doing to the environment on the one hand and then going and spoiling another bit in an attempt to correct the first mistake.

artygran, you can't believe everything (anything?) you read in the papers. I was reported on once, nothing in the article was right even my name! Also I think the RSPB is beginning to work out that birds that can fly through woods and chain link fencing are not going to be caught out by a wind farm that they can see from several miles away.

The first time I saw a windturbine was in California about 16years ago.

Bring on more wind farms!!!!

I've been to Delabole too but it must have been after they improved them because I didn't find them noisy at all. I think they are elegant and safe. We all use electricity so we should be prepared to live near where it is produced. Where would you prefer to live near, a coal fired power plant, a nuclear power plant or a wind farm? I know which I would choose.

Love them or loath them, we have little option. Power from fossil fuels are destroying our planet, we have to find a cleaner fuel source. in the UK we do not have the landscape for hydro electric power, wave/tide power is still in development, we are left with nuclear power with it's inherent dangers and wind power. Nuclear power appears to be the only option for the bulk of our power, but wind power can provide a significant amount and will reduce our reliance on nuclear until other clean sources can be developed.
Personally I don't find wind farms a blot on the landscape, they blend in better than nuclear block houses and can be removed when their day is done.

Hi jess . Are we disagreeing on this thread? If so, I hadn't noticed. I don't object to the harnessing of wind power. I think we should do it. I just don't think the technology is quite advanced enough yet. Wind turbines quite close to me had to be turned off during the coldest part of the winter because the grid couldn't cope with the overload of power. That's an argument for re-structuring the grid. The turbines also had to be turned off during our rather frequent storms last winter because they couldn't cope with the force of the wind — just when the demand for extra power was at its greatest. That's an argument for continuing to refine windmills, which I'm in favour of. We even investigated having our own windmill but, sadly, the air turbulence around our house on a hill is so great that it would have caused more wreckage than power.

Please, everyone reading my posts on the threads carboncareful started, don't think I'm opposed to sensible renewables and recycling. I'm not. My own carbon footprint is low, but I don't believe (because the science I have read is unconvincing and some cases just plain wrong) that CO2 is (a) a driver of climate change, or (b) a pollutant. This colours my interpretations, as you would expect. Scientific scepticism in the face of uncertainty is a good thing.

The moorlands of Britain are not a natural landscape. They are a "man made" landscape. Some of them have been engineered for grouse moor and the rest have been deforested and grazed. Just another way that humans have found to use them.
I think turbines are beautiful but are not going to solve our energy problems single handed, as it were .
We just had a very non windy winter...

Baggy and I are disagreeing on another thread about the dangers of all-natural carbon .