'Is Britain racist'?

Perhaps better would be 'is Europe becoming more racist' as it is a European wide problem at the moment.

As said, again, and again- it seems the UK, despite the problems highlighted recently, is overall more tolerant than most other European countries. It could then look at the situation and the specificities in several countries.

As said, racism in France, for instance- is very different to the situation in the UK. Because FRench culture and history is different, because of the principle of secularity and separation of Church and State so dear to the French (and the opposite of the situation in the UK where the Christian Church is closely linked and highly represented in the Lords, etc)- and its particular colonial past, which again, is very different to that of the UK. The only subject which is not allowed to be taught in FRance is religion, whereas in England it is compulsory- is an illustration of the differences. I know well educated, totally assimilated and well spoken, who adhere to their faith but do not wear any kind of clothing identifying them as such (even wearing a small colourful scarf in a French school is disallowed and results in expulsion! even if the student is the most hard-working, polite and intelligent young woman) North-AFrican Muslims in France, 2nd, 3rd and 4th generation, who still find it almost impossible to find a good job, rent an apartment, get a loan, etc, etc.- and are treated like second-class citizens by many. The UK is way, way more tolerant and open, and aspirational for hard-working young muslims.

Perhaps the BBC should make a programme entitled 'Is Germany Racist?'. Then we could find out more.
Or would that be considered racist in itself?

Someone yesterday really objected to me mentioning the rise of the far right in Europe, incl the UK, and my mention that there were elements which are very similar to 1930s Germany- which should not be ignored (or at our peril). Here is why:

The German government says there have been almost 500 attacks on homes intended for asylum seekers this year - three times more than in 2014.

German Interior Minister Thomas de Maiziere called such violence "shameful". Two-thirds of the attacks were carried out by locals who had no previous criminal record, he said.

so not your traditional National Front/EDL types, but ordinary citizens without criminal record, and that is even more concerning.

it is possible that it happened. We know that it was not dealt with sufficiently strongly by the authorities at first, for fear of appearing racist. That was WRONG, 100%- I think all agree on this (phhheeew). There may have been individuals who tried to hush things- I don't know. Anyhow, we are talking here about a relatively short period of time (far too long for the victims, I know)- and all the Muslim Imams and official all came out to totally condemn the perpetrators. In a very short number of years (far too long for the victims, I know).

For the Catholic Church I'm afraid- abuse went on for decades, centuries even. Abuse of children, young single mums, children in Catholic schools, mental, emotional, physical and sexual. And the Church closed their eyes- and when forced, just moved Priests around Parishes, where they continued the abuse- protected by those in very Senior positions, often abusers themselves. Are you denying this happened- and for a very very long time? Do you know many who blame Christianity itself- rather than the perpetrators and those who protected them?

Are you aware that it did happen, Jane10?

I see. As long as gj isn't aware of it it isn't happening.

x post there granjura

I can't accept the statement that 'non of the Muslim leaders protected them for decades, just moving them around Mosques to abuse more youngsters'. Where is the evidence for that? I see you added a caveat granj, ' that I am aware of'.

There is absolutely no evidence to say that Muslim leaders have acted any differently than any other institution in relation to the sexual abuse of children. There is no evidence to say that sexual abuse happens less often within the Muslim community than in any other. Most people, especially those who haven't been involved in the investigation/treatments of perpetrators and survivors, find it very difficult to believe the true extent of the sexual abuse of children.

know what?

I know, as everyone does, that the Catholic Church protected abusive Priests again and again, over decades and even 100s of years. That they condoned the appaling treatment of young unmarried mums, etc, etc.

None of the Muslim leaders, that I am aware of- did that. Perhaps for a short period of doubt and proof, but then all came out to say it was haram and sinful, and nothing to do with Islam.

How do you know that?

Totally agree POGS and I have apologised. This only became clear after I'd posted.

And I agree too that paedophlia and abuse trangresses race and religion. However, if you didn't watch the programmes on both LibertyGB and BritainFirst- their supporters again and again said that raping and abusing girls was a particular Muslim thing. So thanks for confirming, it is no more Muslim than it is Christian (but at least none of the Muslim religious leaders protected them for decades, just moving them around Mosques to abuse more youngsters).

Granjura

There have been previous threads that totally accept / recognises paedophillia is not the domain of any one race, colour or sexuality actually. The Rotherham thread probably being one.

I know it should be a new thread but I feel very sorry for Leon Brittans family and I cannot help but wonder what it was like for a dying man to have had to deal with this. Terrible.

I think this is a case for Parliamentary Privilege to be seriously debated in parliament .

Alea- yes I only became aware towards the end of the programme about this- and should have re-posted, and I am sorry. However, no-one can say that systematic sexual abuse of children in some schools, convents, orphanages, and in the pop/tv world- didn't happen, and protected by some in the police, gvt and judiciary. And that no-one then says these men were 'Christian and abused in the name of Christianity' as is often said in the case of Muslim men.

It is very easy to throw mud, and what is remembered is not that the thrower missed by a mile but that there was mud around.

Are you watching Panorama on the subject, including the likes of Leon Britain and others in high places

Just wondering, Granjura if you realised that the allegations against Leon Brittan were completely thrown out and doubt cast on the undoubtedly troubled man who was, apparently "encouraged" to make unfounded accusations?
Rather like the TV interview outside Ted Heath's house in Salisbury, again after unsubstantiated and discredited allegations , mud was thrown and it has clearly stuck in some people's minds at any rate.

Don't get me wrong, I am NOT in any way diminishing the cases of child abuse which have resulted in prosecutions and convictions, just trying to maintain a balanced view.

Care to elaborate dear jingl?

I have never in my life licked an **se- I sometimes agree with people, totally, partially, to some extent, not at all... I truly do not believe either can ever amount to licking, or kicking.

Oh, I get so bored with the arse licking that goes on on Gransnet.

I don't think so- think we are done here. A résumé perhaps (with accents of course ; )...

I really do not think that 'Britain' is racist- and actually that Britain is a lot more race and culture tolerant than most other European countries. However, there is a rise of right-wing groups, including some which are clearly more right-wing than others, including neo-fascists (like EDL and BNP)- and that some of those groups try to hide behind nice dress and speech, like LibertyGB and Britain First, which were featured in the two programmes, and to some extent UKIP- is concerning.

And that some immigrant groups do not integrate and increasingly ask for the UK rule of Law to be bent in their favour, is not helpful at all either. Keeping once religion and culture is one thing- wanting to change the Laws by the back door in one's favour is not- and exarcerbate the above.

This could run and run

As usually an intelligently written, well balanced and perceptive post Eloethan.

Thanks Rose I am so glad you agree.

Thinking about it some more- I do wonder to some extent the 'way of life and integration' makes a difference in perception. The young woman spoke native English and didn't wear any kind of 'ethnic' clothing that would have perhaps set her apart in some way.

For instance, if an English family lives in Spain- children are born in Spain, but they only speak English at home and never learn Spanish well, go to the local Anglican Church, never eat local foods, and spend all their time with other expats (ooops, immigrants) and do not mix with the community at all, send the kids to English schools - then their perception as Spanish would be more tenuous.

Whereas, if the family all speak Spanish fluently, despite perhaps choosing to speak English in the home and with close English friends, go to the local school and join in local activities, etc, happily eat most Spanish foods (but of course still have some English stuff at home and from time to time, including Turkey and trifle at Christmas, etc)- then the perception would perhaps be very different.

Now, it would not change the facts- but change the perception. It is actually very possible to keep one's language and religion, and at the same time be totally and well integrated- as the young journalist obviously was. The young man from LibertyGB told her, again and again, that whatever she achieved, whatever her behaviour and attitude, whatever her integration, she couldn't ever be considered 'English' - it was totally clear. And totally wrong.

The young woman was totally right to say she is 'English' as she was born, bred, educated in England.
That is quite right granjura and I am amazed that anyone would think otherwise.
Our old neighbours were Indian but their child was born in England, therefore English surely. I'm not sure if she was allowed dual nationality, it is not something that ever occurred to me to ask.
As English as my children.

POGS As I've said before, I believe most people (including myself) have petty, irrational and sometimes subconscious prejudices. But, in my view anyway, prejudice is unpleasant but prejudice + power equals racism, which is truly corrosive because its effects are emotional and material, and can trap a whole group of people in a permanent state of disadvantage.

The fact that someone dislikes me because I'm white is unfair and upsetting - but it has no substantive impact upon my life. However, if that someone is part of the mainstream culture, such dislike is not only upsetting but it has far more chance of materially affecting my life and future prospects by denying me: a university place, the job I'm qualified to do, etc, etc.

Presque

On dirait plus Anglaise que les Anglais alors