Show respect

Child benefit was not given for first child when we were young, second baby granted you the grand sum of 8/6 a week.

Trisher yes I did get free milk (yuk) cod liver oil capsules, there were not maintenance grants at that stage. We did have a reasonable welfare state post war and yes there was free tertiary education paid for by the taxes by those who many of those benefitting, the thickos of our society who worked from the age of 15 in the mines and heavy industry.
I did train as a nurse in my earlier years, this training was done as a vocational route I.e. Working and learning on the job.
If you had a grandson training to be a carpenter, would you be happy for him to be taxed to pay for the training of a neighbours grandson to be a doctor who would eventually earn maybe three times more than your grandson with no payback? Whilst I appreciate we need these people, we gave to appreciate that previously it was the workers who paid their fees.

Worth £10+ in today's money

I do not understand that, joelsnan.
My granddaughter works and pays her taxes to pay for whatever is needed. She had to pay £3000 a year for her degree, but worked in a hotel all the time so she did not have a big loan at the end of it.

The welfare state is the welfare state. If we earn money we pay taxes. If we do not earn enough to live on we claim benefits. I hope that none of my grandchildren, when they get work, begrudge paying taxes to pay for the doctors or nurses needed by the NHS, always supposing we have one by then. Nurses work their way through now. They should have bursaries.
Your comment shows just how selfish you expect people to be in this country now.

I spent ages reading articles and watching the TV coverage of the referendum and agonised over which way to vote. In the end I vote remain but it was a close run thing. If I had voted leave it would not have been because I am a racist or because I don't want people from the EU living here. DJ please accept there are many people who voted leave that have no desire to see your grandson or his mother or sister leave this country. As I said, I voted remain but came very close to voting leave but with no anti immigration thoughts. I am sorry for your family and all those who no longer feel welcome in this country. Please ask them to stay and let the dust settle. Emotions are running high now. Hopefully respect for both sides (and all nationalities) will return.

@Joelsnan

Your last point about workers paying for others to go to university was exactly the point Nick Clegg made when he supported raising university fees to £9000 - and look what happened to him! What he actually did was a deal with the Conservatives. He agreed to raising the tuition fees in exchange for the introduction of Pupil Premium, which is intended to raise the attainment of poorer pupils.

If I were Prime Minister (never going to be, so I can dream), one thing at the top of my agenda would be high quality vocational education for the 15-18 group. I would bring over advisers from Germany (forget the mathematicians from Shanghai) to show us what they've been getting right for about 100 years.

I would also re-introduce night schools (remember them?) for those who want a second bite of the educational cherry. They hardly exist any more and even the Open University has become unaffordable for the majority. There are online courses, mainly from private providers, but their quality is variable, they're not cheap and it's difficult to motivate oneself without some face to face support. A proper system of integrated apprenticeship/classroom learning would be better for practical skills, but that requires long term planning (sigh) and unfortunately governments are only thinking of the next election.

@durhamjen

The situation with student fees has changed since your gd did her degree. They're now £9000pa and there is no grant even for the poorest students. They can take out a maintenance loan of £8000, but this needs to be paid back.

Approximately 75% of graduates will never pay back their loans, so they commit themselves to paying a graduate tax for 30 years. There's no point doing a part-time job, because the amounts (and interest on them) are so huge that income from a part time job will not make any difference and the unpaid amount will be written off anyway.

Unfortunately, what we now have in universities are students who are fairly certain they will earn enough to make the graduate tax worthwhile AND students at some of the new universities who have no intention of earning over £21,000pa and, therefore, won't have to pat the loans back anyway. For those destined to earning an 'average' income there is little incentive unless students really enjoy their subject.

@Crafting

I think the problem is that people have been sold a pup and they can't say they weren't warned. We're beginning to see the fall out and people are angry, because the whole thing was avoidable

As far as the student loans go there is considerable evidence that because of the low rate of pay back and the high cost of administration they are actually costing more than a grant system would. But it makes some people feel better.The qualified doctor will eventually pay far more in taxes than most carpenters Joelsnan so things even out. The people who worked in industry were not "thickos" they were denied an academic education but it was something many wanted for their children. Both my parents left school at 14 but it wasn't what they wanted for me.

Durhamjen You are so contradictory in yor statements, one one hand you purport to be the true socialist, then flip flop when it suits your case. I agree most students now pay fees or take student loans.
My point was that the older people who are now being called the thicko's are the ones who through their taxes (before the introduction of student loans) are the ones who, through their taxation paid for the education of these educated intellectuals who now call them racist, xenophobic thickos. Biting the hand that fed them.
We are very fortunate to have taxation funded education to 18 Years of age. In many countries education is self funded from day one.
In the case of nurses, return it to the caring vocational profession it once was where nurses learned on the job and received a salary while they trained, there was not a nursing shortage when this method of training was used.
Far from expecting people to be selfish, I would hope for a true socialist perspective and recognise that whatever social benefit is received, someone maybe much poorer than yourself has contributed to this through their taxes. If you feel that those without the intellectual inclination pay the tuition fees of those who are more able and which will then place them within a higher social status so be it, but don't then bang on about how unjust the ones at the bottom if the ladder are treated.

trisher that is my point, just because many people did not have a university education it certainly does not make them the thickos that they are being called by some of the so called intellegencia. In many instances these are the ones who funded their education and obviously still do for those who do not pay back student loans

This word 'thick' is really upsetting a lot of people. Did anyone see the news night special this evening? A lady from Boston ( where the vote to leave was very high) is sick to the teeth of being called thick.
The other thing she was very angry about was that her local Doctors surgery employs 3 translaters at £40 an hour. And who said immigration had nothing to do with it, well it certainly did in Boston.

A true socialist Joelsnan would believe in free education for all who have the ability including university education. 'From each according to his ability to each according to his need" The point about student loans is that the system was brought in to appease people who did not recognise the value and importance of further education but imagined they were somehow being made to pay more. It was also planned to be a money spinner for the government who planned to sell on the debt, unfortunately it has all unravelled and the debt is now toxic. As I said the university educated pay more taxes and also provide valuable public services so the poor do benefit. Oh and all students now pay fees and take student loans.

Let's not overlook the rants on Facebook from what I sincerely hope is the vocal minority of Leave supporters to anyone in the Remain camp who dares raise their head above the parapet. The crowing about how we fought the Germans from posters who don't look as if they're in their 90s, the demands that people f**k off to Europe if they like it so much, etc, etc. The name-calling is disturbing whichever side it comes from.

Trisher I am not against free education to first degree level however I do not necessarily agree that this results in graduates paying more tax or indeed tthat obtaining a degree results in a more valuable job than say a builder or indeed a shelf stacker in Tesco. Many who benefit from the education system also emigrate so do not contribute via taxation. Interesting the countries deemed to be the most socialist charge for education, the ones that do no tend to be clustered around Northern Europe, these of course either have higher taxation or cost of living.

Daphne, I do know about fees now. My granddaughter was going to take a year out, but decided not to as she would have had to pay £9000 a year instead of £3000. She feels very lucky.

I had a full grant for my degree, probably paid for by my husband's taxes.
I am a true socialist, thank you very much, joelsnan.
Like trisher I believe in free education for all, and regret the fact that Labour brought in fees.
Scandinavian countries have higher taxes so that their people can benefit from free education. My son's partner has a first and a master's degree, both paid for and given grants for by her country of birth even though they were studied over here. Scandinavia values education wherever it is found. Shame our government only values it for those who can pay.

It's depressing how many people apparently don't understand the meaning of 'great' as in 'Great Britain'. I have seen a lot of posts (not just here) saying 'we're not great!' or WTTE.

I have never heard of anyone apparently thinking that Greater London means 'more fantastic London'.

And the people saying this tend to be the Remain voters who are calling the Leave voters thick and uneducated.

(I voted Remain, BTW.)

The most socialist country of all in the case of education is in fact Cuba Joelsnan who offer free education at all levels and also offer to the countries of the surrounding area, including Haiti, free medical training. Many of those shelf stacking in Tescos are in fact studying as well. Many builders emigrate as well it isn't limited to those with degrees. I don't think all 'leave' voters are thick I do think there has always been a significant number of working class people who have held right wing views, I think the problem is that there is now significant backing by some wealthy people for a right wing party (UKIP) who have found themselves a puppet leader with some appeal and who are very dangerous. Historically speaking things repeat themselves.