Cut out of their lives

Carol

Is it that presumption that we should be focusing on and also the (perceived/real) bias towards mothers?

Don't know nanny1, my brain is aching now!! I'm not an expert on children's law, so would appreciate some thoughts from other Gransnetters. I only know I wouldn't want to inadvertently press for any access rights that would jeopardise the wellbeing of all children involved in access disputes. However, it is this careful approach of right-thinking dads and grandparents that leaves room for some children to be alienated from their loving dads and grandparents.

Ok Carol let us rest the brains for a while and re-order our thoughts. I am not an expert either and you are wise to suggest a considered approach.

I've read through this thread and am impressed by the thought and effort that is going into it. I did think that this situation didn't affect me but who knows? 'There but for the grace of God go I' perhaps. And that goes for all of us. It is a cause well worthy of our focussed support. May I suggest Grandpower rather than Granpower. Seems more inclusive and maybe has a bit more clout??

Good thinking em. Some Grandpower input would be very much appreciated, and we can all decide how we move this forward.

I discussed this issue with my daughter while she was visiting. I've just seen her and GS onto her train back to Cheshire. Her view is that grandparents have no absolute rights with regard to grandchildren. Problems arise when there is a breakdown, for whatever reason, of family inter-relationships. I think I tend to agree with her that, although situations arising from such breakdowns can be heart-breaking for the people concerned, it is not for "the law" to decide how the people involved should interact with each other so long as the children are being well cared for. "The law" should only step in when a child's safety is at risk. Growing up without contact with grandparents does not affect a child's safety, nor even necessarily its well-being. Plenty of children have grown up and still do grow up without ever knowing their grandparents. While I would be devastated to think I could never see my GS again, I don't think his not seeing me would be detrimental to his well-being so I couldn't, in all conscience, argue for a law that "got me access". However mistaken his parent(s) might be if they cut off contact, he is their child, not mine. I have no rights with regard to him, only hopes and wishes.

Oh so thankfully, this isn't a situation which affects me directly either em. Like you, I am blessed with having a fantastic relationship with my grandson There are no restrictions put on when or how often I see him. Recently I have had other things to deal with in my life and have not been able to see my GS as often as I would normally do. I have found this difficult and have missed him a lot, despite sending him text messages, e-mails and of course speaking to him.

I cannot imagine how painful it must be for those grandparents who are not in that position where they can freely enjoy their grandchildren.

This is something I feel very strongly about and want to do something to make a difference.

Good point Bagitha. However a good friend of mine found herself in this situation and when contact was re-established years later as the GC's became teenagers she felt so guilty. They clearly had not had a good, caring upbringing and she knows she can do little to change that now. She feels very strongly that if only she'd been able to see them she just might have been able to help. She didn't see them but she didn't stop caring.

I think I would feel the same, em, in that position — that I might have been able to help — but from a legal point of view, that would hold no water. I have to admit that it is extremely hard for me to imagine how awful it must be to be cut off from your offspring and their offspring (though obviously I can imagine some of it and it must be truly painful so I sympathise entirely with people's desperately wanting to do something to change the situation they find themselves in), but I also have to admit that I am very lucky to have total confidence in my daughter and her partner. Even if they split up, they would not do anything that would limit the child's relationships with his other relatives and would most probably go out of their way to prevent such a thing happening. i know I am lucky.

Yes, I see what you and your daughter mean Bagitha. It is not at all about the grandparents' rights, but the rights of children to have contact with their extended family and to know how they fit into the scheme of things. We don't 'own' children and should want to empower them as they grow up, so they can exercise their choice about who they can be close to, or not. As a loving grandmother who has had close contact with my 5 grandchildren since day 1, I feel that my attachment to them and theirs to me has been carefully developed in their best interests, and to disrupt it when they have an expectation that I will continue to be close would be cruel to them. If they were to go to live abroad, I would continue to make efforts to be close to them by whatever means, and they would know that from me and from their parents. My struggle is with that disruption when it is not explained to children, or they are given false reasons for loss of contact, which they may never come to terms with. I wouldn't want a law that 'got me access' but one that recognises the right of children to continue, and not have disrupted, loving relationships with both fathers and grandparents. I have no idea how that law would look, though.......

Bagitha I think the difference may be that you have that confidence in your family and feel you can trust them to do right by the child. She, unfortunately, was aware that the mother was a difficult person who had her own issues. She took the kids off into the rural hinterlands where they were really quite isolated. They had no friends, became quite inept socially, attended school only when it suited her, etc. Being aware of this and unable to do anything made my friend very frustrated.

The story you tell, em, is indeed very sad and I feel for your friend but, as carol says, how would a law that helped such children maintain contact with their extended families work? It is a very tricky question to answer. In the case of the children em describes, who is to judge whether the lifestyle they led was harmful? Many other people have grown up in isolated places and been fine. Many children have less than perfect parents or parents who have "issues" of various kinds but who are, nevertheless, reasonable parents. If "the law" starts interfering in such cases, where would it end? What about people's freedom to live life as they choose. Some people like being fairly isolated; some children never go to school and are still educated in a satisfactory manner, and so on. I don't think there is ever going to be a cut and dried way of "the law" telling parents how they should bring up there children. I wouldn't want there to be and I'm sure many other people wouldn't either. Freedom has to start somewhere, including freedom to run away from whatever it was that the woman em describes was running away from, if that's what it was. I think I am just trying not to be judgmental. Who knows what problems people have or how they think to deal with them?

'their' children

I've been looking to see whether Gloria Hunniford has a website about grandparenting issues, but she doesn't seem to. She does have contact with The Grandparents' Association, on whose website I found the info below. They don't yet have comments about yesterday's Justice Report and its impact in the news.

The Alliance on Family Contact (AOFC) AOFC is an alliance of organisations, brought together by the Grandparents’ Association, with the aim of raising raise awareness of the impact of family breakdown and the importance of maintaining and nurturing positive relationships between children and key family members. AOFC works to advance a positive process and understanding in relation to family breakdown, and to promote implementation of cultural change, research and sharing of information to benefit children affected by it.

AOFC urges policy makers, both national and local to:

1. Do more to actively promote positive, nurturing, and safe relationships between children and both their parents.

2. Review the requirement that grandparents have to apply for leave to go to court for a residence or contact order – this can unnecessarily delay a key process for deciding whether a child should have continuing contact with family members.

3. Give effect to the intention of the Children Act in that when parents are not living together, children should maintain meaningful relationships with both parents and other key family members.

4. Provide readily available and accessible services and support for families affected by family breakdown.

5. Effectively facilitate the distribution of Public Money to support parenting, including child benefit and child tax credit, to enable both parents to play the fullest possible part in their child’s upbringing.

For further information:
Contact [email protected] or tel: 01279 428040

Like NANNY1 I'm resting my brain and re-ordering my thoughts.
I think GRANDPOWER is good -more inclusive of rights for children and their grandparents.Are there any politicians or public figures who have been denied contact with grandchildren?
I'll be back.

How quickly the grandchildrens issue has become old news .I just watched 'Andrew Marr Show'.Joan bakewell was guest.She is ambassador for older people but in her comments on this weeks news she made no mention of the slap in the face that grandparents/fathers have had this week.I feel more depressed and despairing than I have about anything else in my 80 years.It is a fact that many older people in this situation are suffering from depression and even risk of suicide.
Thanks Carol for the summary of AOFC policy.I guess many of these groups will need to rewrite their programme in view of the latest setbacks.

We have legislation for every group founded because they felt marginalised or stigmatised - racism, sexism, ageism, disabled rights, union rights - the legislation formed the basis for discussion and going forward. There are child-lines, parent-lines, AA - what do we devastated parents/grandparents have - the Samaritans and all they do is stop us cutting our throats. And of course the problem with attracting attention to ourselves is that we are asking younger/working people to take notice and until they stand in our shoes, fat chance.

Some simple basic rights to access would mean that we can't simply be ignored and put aside and our worth as grandparents in children's lives would be recognised and allowed. Everything needs a starting point and voluntary never works.

Hello all, I seem to have been away for a very long time - I've just re-read quite a few of your posts and I stood in the shoes of those who have loving and involved families and, although I sympathised hugely with a friend estranged from her son and grandchildren, I truly had not the least clue how devastating it would be when it happened to us. We all try and imagine 'what if' circumstances but it's only human to be unable.

I hate it that people around us, however well we know them, stand well clear on the grounds that we most likely did something or other to arrive at this situation - it's all too obvious in their faces that there is a distinct shift when they get to know that our son's brother is as out in the cold as we.

Current state of affairs - Christmas filled with grandparents making plans and maybe even moaning on having to fit everyone in. We are completely without hope having tried everything possible and more.

There are so many sad and bad things that happen in life and it is all so pointless and cruel to invent others and my Christmas wish is that there will be reconciliations and happy times out there for every grannie and grandad.

Every good wish.

Hugs, nanban

More hugs, nanban ♥

Good to hear from you nanban. We, too, are going through more trauma, having had a few weeks access to my grandson - it is now being threatened just a few days before Christmas - calculated and callous, designed to wreak cruel revenge and completely ignoring the impact on our beloved grandson. He now believes he will not see us till at least after Christmas, if at all - I was planning to take him to the cinema tomorrow, but it looks like that has gone out of the window, too. How does he perceive the adults around him, when they are using him as a weapon to take pot shots?

We carry on, sending out our fragile messages to him, letters, DVDs, books, cards - all positive and loving, never mentioning the strife going on around him - he is a child and should not have this inflicted on him.

I hope you have a peaceful Christmas, anyone who is in this position. Never give up - always write blogs, journals, keep memory boxes for the future, send your messages in any way you can, and keep faith that the children will soon be able to benefit from their grandparents' love in person x

My own rift with our son, which he started 4 months ago, has not healed. I think Christmas will be a little sad this year. The other son is in contact with him, but while we do ask him if his brother is OK, we won't use him as a go-between: it is just not fair. There are no grandchildren involved, but an impending wedding to which we are not invited (April 2012)

I pity all the people who are rejecting the boundless love from the Gransnetters on this thread. It is their sad loss.
I wish I had a magic wand and could make it right for you all.

I echo carol's words and wish you all a peaceful Christmas and hope for next year.xx

A sobering few minutes reading all your posts - withdrawing love is such a powerful and cruel weapon and I thank God that our daughters speak to us and to each other - and really like each other. A dear friend has just told me her daughter and twin baby grandchildren are moving to New Zealand in the new year - my eyes filled with tears as I contemplated how I would feel in her place - and yet many of you might as well be on the moon for all the contact you are allowed with your grandchildren. As they grow up they WILL be free to make their own decisions and knowing that you love them may regret the wasted years. No consolation now though - I wish you some comfort for now and hope for the future xxx

I couldn't put it better, gracesmum. I think about how I miss mine who are always accessible by phone even though 200 miles away, and I can't begin to imagine how you feel and it's so much more poignant at this time of year. With love x