bad language

My point about gransnetters being adults was that adults should be able to recognise when a word is used aggressively or obscenely and when it is used harmlessly (the children could tell the difference). I maintain there is a difference. One is potentially harmful and the other is not. I do not condone violence or aggression, but the hammer dropped on foot example is neither of these. And, in my view, anyone who says it is is being, well, ridiculously stuffy and rigid in their attitude.

Which does not mean I want to use such words myself, but I'm not going to get into a tizwaz when other people use them harmlessly. There is not such thing as an obscene or violent word, only usage can be those things.

This is a very important distinction for me even if other people don't think so. Therefore I argue about it.

Is there really no such thing as an obscene word? Or am I just being dim here ... #waitswithbatedbreath

I would just like to add that in the future if, in my (infrequent) posts I feel the need to use language which some posters might, quite reasonably, find offensive, I will always cross out the potentially offending words so that those of a more refined sensitive respectable nature can skip over them without reading.

This is because I am not totally (not quite) past caring.

#compromiseisgood

jingle

I second that

...that was for #compromiseisgood good night!

#compromiseisgood

My view is that there is no such thing as an obscene word. People use various words to express/describe obscenity. It is not the words used that are obscene, but what is being talked/written about, i.e. whatever is obscene. I think it's possible for people to be obscene, but not words.

Here's an example from the other extreme – an 'innocent' word being used to insult or demean. I imagine that most, if not all female members of gransnet would find a disparaging use of the term "little woman" mildly annoying to say the least. And yet there is nothing wrong with the word "little" or with the word "woman". Little is not insulting; woman is not insulting; little woman can be insulting. It is the connotations of the words when they are used in the phrase "little woman" that cause the annoyance (which may only be a mild annoyance at the stupidity of the person using the phrase rather than a feeling of personal insult). To my mind it's the same with so-called "bad" words. It's not the words themselves that are bad. The way they are used is what matters.

That's the same story as the one I told the Cubs, just a different version. I'm applying the same reasoning to "innocent" words as I apply to "bad" words.

That's a good example Bags of how it is actually how words are used that can be offensive. I always told my children that there are no bad words, just words used badly.

I'm irritated by people who swear constantly and thoughtlessly but the odd well placed expletive doesn't bother me in the least.

I get/got that Bags, with or without italics. My point is that some words are generally considered to be obscene or at least vulgar (unless you split hairs of course - then no words are obscene or vulgar, they are just words).

Agreed!
Off to work, catch up later!

The fact that something is generally considered (by whom? what does that mean? how do you know? what/who are you basing this statement on?) to be vulgar or obscene doesn't necessarily make it so. And in any case, you'd first have to prove the truth of the statement that some words are generally considered to be vulgar or obscene.

In addition, I suggest that if what you state is true, it is still not the words that are vulgar or obscene, but what they name or describe is considered vulgar or obscene. For example, take the word 'cunt'. Essentially, it is a name for female genitalia. There is nothing vulgar or obscene about a part of the female body. BUT, the word is sometimes used as a way of being unpleasant towards someone. It is used as an insult. Even when it is used as an insult, the word is not vulgar or obscene. It is the person's use of the word, and possibly the person using it who is vulgar because they are associating a normal part of the female human body with disgustingness. There's no reason to do that unless the user is having disgusting thoughts and wants to be nasty. It's the person who is nasty, not the word.

Once again, it is the meaning attached, and the connotations of the meaning, that are problematic. Or, to out it another way, it is the intention of the speaker of such words that is the problem, not the words.

An Ecuadorean friend of mine who sometimes worried that his English would be misunderstood used to say "Listen to the meaning of what I'm saying, not just the words." It's a good approach.

So if I drop a hammer on my foot and say Fuck, I'm not being obscene or nasty, because the word thus used has no significant meaning. It's the equivalent of Ouch, which is probably what I would, in fact, say. Or I might even just go Argh! So that's what fuck means in that context. It's harmless.

If I tell someone to fuck off, my reason for using that term is what matters. If I use it angrily, I'm being rude or, at the very least, abrupt.

If I use it jokingly, as some people apparently do, it's pretty harmless.

Varying degrees of meaning depending on context. Context is all.

I don't use the word 'cunt' because of the connotations attached to it. As I understand it, it's nearly always used in an insulting way. It's the being insulting that's at fault here, not the word. However, I accept that many (possibly even most) people would call it an obscene word because it is nearly always (possibly always nowadays) used by people being obscene.

I don't often need to talk about female genitalia (!) so alternative words are not needed anyhow. If I even did need to mention lady bits, it would be in a medical context.

"Innocent" or uninsulting words become insulting when they are applied in an insulting situation.

Context is how we learn the meaning of unfamiliar words. If we have always heard the four-letter words as vulgar insults, then that is how we perceive them, even when they are used in the hammer-on-toe situation. Meanings change as usage changes. When we have lived for 60 or 70 years, that annoys us as we still have our old mental dictionary.

Swear-words are not the only words that have become so by this process. In Mediaeval times, binding legal oaths were sworn "by our Lady" which became "By our Lady, that was a good pie" which morphed into "That was a bloody good pie"

The hopelessly dim village idiot was considered under the special care of God (he needed to be!) and the adjective "salig" - holy or blest - was used to describe such people. Then when unkind friends wanted to insult someone who had done something idiotic, they said he was "salig" - which became "silly".

In more recent times, the resident school for Downs syndrome children and those with learning difficulties in my neighbourhood was Gogarburn. Instead of saying that someone was silly, the standard childish insult around here was "You come from Gogarburn". Cretin, moron and imbecile started off as medical terms for those with specific reasons for very low intelligence, but were taken up as descriptions of anyone who had behaved in a stupid way.

gosh I really started something off with this thread!!

agree with absent both f word and c word make me cringe inside.

i DO use f word more than I should, when angry, but would not expect my son to use it in my ear shot, RESPECT!!!!

We have deviated from the OP and it has been a most interesting and thought-provoking digression. However, the fact remains that there is very little use of what might be termed heavy-duty swear words on Gransnet so the discussion on this thread is – in two meanings of the word – academic.

Quite. And continuing in an 'academic' vein, if my grown up kids felt they had to use different diction when talking to me than to other adults, I wouldn't regard that as respect, but as silly condescension.

Peers around the corner of the door...listens in...pays heed...doesn't get ruffled...likes you lot as you are...

Can we say "fucking norah"? Or "fuckety-doos"?

PS...Since I became a Gransnetter, I've mellowed. Thanks to everyone, especially Jings

j07 I once stopped myself in the nick of time from saying 'bl**dy nora' to someone who was actually called that

Fancy having a name like BloodyNora. Oh well, names do seem to be getting stranger these days.