Cut out of their lives 3

One evening an old Cherokee told his grandson about a battle that goes on inside people.

He said, “My son, the battle is between two wolves inside us all.
“One is Evil – It is anger, envy, jealousy, bitterness, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority, and ego.
“The other is Good – It is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion and faith.”

The grandson thought about it for a minute and then asked his grandfather: “Which wolf wins?”

The old Cherokee simply replied, “The one you feed.”

Anya - thanks for sharing; there is so much truth in that.

As one who also came looking for empathy, support and helpful information, I appreciated those comments that made me think critically about family dynamics and what I might be able to change, in the certainty that the person depriving me of contact with my grandson was not going to change any time soon. I'm not one to wallow in sadness and loss, preferring to have a good weep then crack on and learn more about what I could do to improve things. We're all different, aren't we? All I would say is that sometimes it's worth listening to comments we don't welcome. I'm lucky to have that contact back now, but I'll never forget how it felt and don't wish it on anyone. The sensible posts I've seen on here aren't from people looking for a fight but observers who can see entrenched attitudes that aren't prepared to try something different, or to hold out the olive branch again and again. Things can change all of a sudden so it's worth it to keep trying in a kind and open way, even if all does appear to be lost.

This is not the place for "a good fight" and I hope no-one would come here looking for one. However, some people have come on to show a different viewpoint from the one in which the main posters are standing.

They were not attacking them, but were attacked for their posts. Perhaps it was not yet soon enough to point out the wider perspective, but the motive for trying was not fighting or cruelty, or causing trouble, of which they were accused.

If you consult a professional therapist about how unhappy you are about a situation, you get support and understanding, but you are also guided to think clearly about all the aspects of your feelings and reactions, including the ones that are unwelcome to you. By doing that you help yourself toward healing.

Before I say 'goodbye' I would like it made clear that I did not give any aggressive threat to anyone, I said 'It would give me immense joy if my s.I.l left my D for your D & how well would you deal with this situation then" (if it was your D with this boy) it was an hypothetical question, no threat, no aggression.

Plus "if you give me your details"!

The subject of the message took it as a threat, just as earlier messages have been taken as cruelty or trouble-making. It just shows how easy it is to take offence when it is not intended, and how it hurts both sender and receiver when a post is misunderstood.

yogagirl why not simply say 'sorry' ?

How lovely to come and see that you've posted Nanban. You always post with such care and consideration and it was good to hear from the lady who started this thread, what it was set up to do and it's done so much good because of the kindness and empathy that can be found here.

For those of you who 'know' me, you know I love a good quote and thought this was very apt. It's from the preface to the Book of Job.

"Many of the answers that Job's so called friends give him are technically true but it is the "technical" part that ruins them. They're answers without personal relationship, intellect without intimacy. The answers are slapped on to Job's ravaged life like labels on a specimen bottle."

I love that story about the wolves too Anya and if the last couple of days are anything to go by there must be a few around with rather full bellies.

I agree Elegran that some have been "attacked for their posts". It seems that it was my reference to the 'phone conversation with my b.i.l. which I judged to be insensitive that started this in the first place. Both me and my post were attacked by NextStopWaverley. She accused me of "coming straight back at him with a reply to make him feel guilty".

She said it must make everyone's "life very difficult when they have to tip toe around (me) and not even mention their family". In a response to Celebgran she went on to say "I hope you Smileless are as sensitive to the burden of guilt that you are transferring to your wider family every time a passing mention of GC triggers your want for them to feel sorry for you". I do not believe that these comments were intended not to be cruel or to cause trouble. The resulting exchanges have certainly caused a great deal of trouble and upset and I found them unbelievably cruel. Although I was accused of having a "thin skin" I'm pretty sure that some one with a skin like a rhinoceros would have also found them cruel.

Regular posters on this thread are often attacked and what has transpired over the last couple of days appears to be a case of some being able to dish it out but being unable to take it. If we respond we are accused of 'naval gazing', 'only wanting to listen to the things we want to hear', 'not being prepared to take advice' etc. etc.

I had not intended to come on and vent my spleen butand deeplyat the prospect of Yogagirlsaying goodbye. Don't go Yogagirl you were the first to welcome me on to this thread; your friendship and support have got me through some of the worst days of my life. You've given so much to this thread and have even more to contribute; it will be a sadder and lonelier thread without you.

Even my sleeping pills couldn't help last night. I tossed & turned all night & woke exhausted & upset. So I'm on here again to clear my good name. Having my post deleted by gransnet has made it look like I said something terrible & people will be wondering what bad things I wrote. I put part of it above, only part because I thought if I put the first line with 'give me your contact details' it would again be deleted. Elegran has made it look like I was withholding part of it, lying!
I would ask gransnet team to reinstated my post if I knew how, obviously some on here are well versed in the procedure & makes me wonderful if this was done purposely to make it look like a bad post was taken off by them.
It was quite clearly a tongue in cheek hypothetical scenario, to make readers see through my eyes & be in my shoes, I will repeat my post, to the best of my memory, so it can be seen by all & hope it stays on this time;
if you give me your contact details, I will pass on to my s.I.l for your D. It would give me immense joy if my s.I.l left my D for your D & how well would you deal with this situation then" (if it was your D&GC with this boy) It was an hypothetical question, no threat, no aggression.
If anyone bothered to read my posts you would know I have not seen my D&GC, so therefore my s.I.l, for 2yrs & 3months, I have no contact details for them & I don't know where they live now.
I will leave you 'ladies' now to enjoy this forum.

Well clearly yoga you enjoy being confrontational.

Yogagirl, If you repeat something which GN have deleted because it breaks forum rules, don't be surprised if they ban you anyway.

It was the idea of your 'immense joy', rejoicing at the thought of another poster suffering in the same way that you say you have, that I found distasteful.
Do you have no insight into the effects of your behaviour on others?

Yogagirl I'm pleased you haven't left GN as I know your support group on here means a lot to you and you need that. And I'm truly sorry you had a sleepless night with all the worry.

The comment which was deleted was clearly written in anger and I think we can understand that. We all say and do things we regret. Well, I know I have.

The simplest way forward is not to leave GN, but to say 'I'm sorry' - even if you did not intend your post to sound threatening, that is how it came accross. Some people find it very hard to use those two little words.

Immense joy at getting rid of my nasty s.I.l Again I will state it was a tongue in cheek hypothetical scenario, not real! Obviously I should have just said 'how would you feel if it was your D&GC with this boy'. I live & learn. I hope & intend to never have to come on here again.

Thank you Anya our posts crossed x

In case anyone thought that I was deliberately making it look as though yogagran was lying - I wasn't, I just thought that leaving that out altered the sense of her post and made it less reasonable of Nelliemoser to report it.

Why not add a smiley if it was a joke? After the impassioned post about the Gypsy SiL a lighthearted joke would have been a sudden change of mood, and flagging it up would have helped. Interpreting posts is not easy without some clue.

It was clearly said in anger yogagirl and as so often happens, what we say in the heat of the moment can haunt us for long after the event. I wonder if this however does not typify much of what has led to estrangement? When someone you "know" on a website lashes out, it is hurtful, but ultimately passes, like all things. The same comment to someone you love or who loves you would be much more hurtful and damaging to a relationship. Said face to face or even worse on Facebook, it could seriously fracture a relationship.
Just saying because the impression I get from much in this and other threads is that harsh words are spoken in anger and lead to relationship breakdowns in which neither side is prepared to back down or mend fences.

So true, Soutra. In some circumstances it means someone needs to be the bigger person and swallow their pride in favour of restablshing the relationship that enables contact. Hard to do but nowhere near as hard as not seeing the children.

Hey, folks, let's just kick them when they're down shall we?

NOBODY is kicking ANYBODY (deliberate shouty capitals). What is wrong with saying as you find? Or are opinions only welcome if of the "there, there, calm down dear" variety.
I fail to see how you are interpreting what I said as you have done as "kicking anybody when they are down" apart from trying to get another barney going. I tried hard to express my opinion with objectivity and I suppose I should have "one" not you (but it sounds too much like Prince Charles) but yet again, everything is taken personally. Same old, same old.

I have come late to this thread and understand that things have been said and feelings have been hurt which is unfortunate and apologies may be in order.

I think some time ago someone started a parallel thread intended to look at 'helpful ideas and suggestions?' for those estranged from loved ones, leaving this thread as a place for individuals to seek and offer support. Like others, I have had some worries about the amount of personal information some divulge on here but that is their choice and I have accepted that people suffering immense pain clearly continue to derive benefit from talking to people who understand their feelings.

May I respectfully suggest that the rest of us leave the thread as our (very reasonable) discussions are detracting from the positive aspects and removing a source of support from all those who rely on it.

When other threads have asked, what qualities would we like to encourage in our DGC, 'kindness' is usually one that comes at the top of any list. So please, whatever the rights and wrongs, could we not lead by example and take our discussions elsewhere.

Yes, it's easy to see how people react in anger. I've been thinking along the same lines Nightowl inasmuch as I've been worried that there are those who need this thread but now feel thet have nowhere safe to go and talk.

Everyone needs a friend to talk to, even more so when feelings are running high. Perhaps it's even time to start a COOTL 4 as this one is nearing its 'sell by' date of 1000 posts? But of course that's not my decision to make.

I wish you all hope for the future.

Anya thanks for your reasonable post I am very angry that yogagirl has been so upset she is a lovely person who does not deserve this.

Whenim you constantly imply these estrangements are due to angry hasty words and a simple apology is all that is needed and with respect that is just not true in our case and I am sure lots more.

If anyone should apologise it is the horrid words from Waverley and soutra and shame on Gransnet admin for not removing their posts before all this erupted.

Does anyone, estranged from their children, think they could have done something differently to avoid the situation getting to a point of no return??
Or is it always someone else to blame 100%?

I have seen situations when children have been involved in drugs /illegal activities and this has caused the rift. I understand that.

I have seen situations where there has been jealousy between parent and son/daughter in law or a huge row over something. This is something I understand less.

Celeb please read my posts again. I've talked about being kind and open to comments that might not be welcome and referred to my own experience of being denied contact. Also, I said in some circumstances it means someone needs to be the bigger person.......etc

Some circumstances, not every circumstance.

Please don't attribute to me what I haven't said. Peace

Penstemmon - I almost lost my relationship with my DD through jealousy and pettiness (mine). Fortunately I was able to salvage it but I was very close to becoming estranged from her and my DGD.