Cut out of their lives 3

KatyK glad it turned out OK Sometime hard to see the longer view/bigger picture.

I first posted on COOTL2 about two and a half years ago. Before I posted, I don't do face book and rarely email so it was completely new to me, I read the entire thread. I was in a bad way; heart broken and devastated at the loss of my son who would 'phone me every day, who I had had the most wonderful relationship with and when he walked away from us, and cut us out of his life, took our only gc with him.

The cause of this devastating rift was jealousy which Penstemmon I don't understand at all. The day they were engaged, she looked me in the eyes and said "I have only child syndrome, I don't share" and boy, she wasn't kidding.

It was 3 or 4 months after this nightmare began before we told any one, friends or family what was happening. We were embarrassed and ashamed. How could this happen to our family? Would people think we were to blame, that we must have done or said something so terrible that we'd turned our own child against us?

So imagine my relief when I found COOTL, when I found other people who were going through the same thing, people who would and could understand and who wouldn't assume 'that there's no smoke without fire' because some times, all too often in fact there's plenty of smoke without a spark insight.

What would some one think if they were to read some of the posts that have made there way on here in the last few days? Would they feel like I did that first time, that they'd found a safe haven, that even if they were disagreed with they'd be treated with respect? I very much doubt it.

Thank you for your posts Nightowl and Anya because that's what worries me. This thread has given much support when most needed. I could be wrong but I wouldn't mind betting that this is the longest running thread ever to have been on GN because there is a need for it and I think now we're the closest we've ever been to losing it.

Not all discussions over the past few days have been "very reasonable" Nightowl, far from it. NextStepWaverley's attack on me and my post was outrageous. Yogagirl was right, maybe there are some on GN who are well versed in it's procedures and know exactly how to make a complaint and get a post deleted. Perhaps I could have had NextStepWaverley's post deleted but I prefer to fight my own battles.

Taking Soutra's eg of deliberate shouty capitals some posters do come on this thread to CAUSE TROUBLE and ILL FEELING. If any of you really believe that all that's wanted on here is a large dose of "there, there calm down dear" why do you come on? What difference does it make to you?

In the two and a half years I've posted here, I think that including this one, there's been 4 occasions when for no apparent reason a poster has been criticized, which then appears to open the door for any one wishing to jump on the band wagon.

Why don't you just leave this thread alone, to do what it was intended to do, which judging by the length of time it's been going it does rather well.

Well said No Smiles. judging by your comments on the estrangement thread Elegran that there are "many relationships which have stayed warm and supportive....(and don't suffer from) "retrospective justification from the tellers viewpoint", you have already made your views clear. Mabye the ladies on this thread no longer care how much you know but rather how much you care.

Right.
I am sorry for your situation smileless, celebgran, yogagirl and all the others, but will you at least hear me out, please?

I have never had any intention of causing trouble

I have not insulted or abused anyone on this thread

I may have been naive however, in thinking that a thread which starts with a question in the title, Am I Being Unreasonable? might be asking for a response to that question, or allow comment from others from outside what feels like an exclusive circle.

Sometimes counselling /opinion /advice will arouse strong emotions, sometimes questions have to be faced, this is not being unsympathetic or cruel. It is not even "tough love".

I suggested that words spoken in the heat of the moment ( and I was indeed referring to yogagirl's comment to * nelliemoser*, which coming straight after the extremely nasty threats she said her SIL had made, did sound, yes, aggressive rather than tongue in cheek) could be even more destructive in a family/relative situation than on an online forum. This was not "nasty" but an observation I think any of us would be entitled to make.

So, you say "Leave this thread alone", that is your wish but it is still an open thread to which any member of GN may respond. That is not going to change for all the accusatory posts.
If you do want a private thread which is not on the AIBU forum, I see no reason why you should not ask GNHQ for a new category, specifically for those sharing your dilemma. If it is clear that it is intended for support only, I see no reason why anybody else would intrude on your grief.

That is all.

Soutra I did not accuse you of insulting or abusing anyone on this thread but there have been insults and abuse and I fail to see how anyone could possibly deny this.

I totally agree that "counselling/opinion/advice will arouse strong emotions" and that it isn't necessarily "being unsympathetic or cruel" but some times it's both of those. It isn't always what is being said that causes distress but the way in which it's said.

If there appears to be an exclusivity to this particular thread perhaps it's because of the subject matter being discussed. Thank goodness that there are many parents and grandparents who are not in this terrible position, but it has never been the intention of any of the posters here to be exclusive.

Posters are always thanked for their contributions even if they're not wholly agreed with, but not when they're expressed in a hostile and derogatory manner. Sadly it isn't always "clear that (some posts) are intended for support only". Over the last few days it's been very clear that some of the posters have had no intention of being supportive.

The sharing of such painful and at times intimate experiences between regular posters has resulted in meaningful and close friendships. Perhaps AIBU was not the best forum for this thread to have begun on, but it's being going a long time.

As I've already said, this is not the first time this thread and its regular posters have come under attack. I know it's as open thread to which anyone can respond, I just can't for the life of me understand the need to come on and disrupt it for the sake of it.

We try to care and support one another. I want this thread to continue so that it's available for anyone who is desperately seeking well meant advice as well as care and support when their worse nightmare becomes a reality; a private thread simply wouldn't serve.

I am not going to waste my time, your's or anyone else's by reiterating some of the appalling comments that have been made. I believe my request was a reasonable one. If you don't like or agree with the content of this thread why come on here, no one here is doing you any harm, just leave it alone.

Thank you AgedP I'm assuming when you referred to No Smiles you meant me; Smileless

First of all I would just like to say that I am one of the posters who was mentioned by smileless, in that I began posting on here a while back but unfortunately around the same time there was quite a lot of negative replies, (not to me personally - another poster) which put me off posting further! I therefore chose to converse with smileless by pm. Although posting publicly may not be for me at this time, I do regularly look in to see how everyone is doing, and I must say that the 3 regular posters on here 'smileless' 'yoga girl' 'celebgran' have been a great comfort to me albeit in private - so thank you ladies, I really don't know what I'd have done without your support!!!!! (Flowers)!!! I just don't get why people who DO NOT understand the way we are feeling could have so much to say on the subject! This thread is for support, and a safe place to air how we are feeling. A place to laugh, to cry or maybe even to vent. It is not a place for negative feedback or to be criticised (let's face it we've received enough of that from our children). So please if you have nothing nice to say, keep it to yourselves or take it to a thread where it's appreciated!!!!!!!
Once more I would just like to say thank you to the lovely ladies on here - keep up the good work xxxxx

I first visited this thread a good while back when it was in one of its earlier lives. I sought the thread out because for a while it was looking as if I was going to be in a similar situation to Smileless with a DiL who seemed to be making it clear that it was her family that was going to be important to her children and that we weren't really needed. As time moved on a little it didn't turn out to be quite that bad. Although it is true that for babysitting or involvement in specially occasions etc it is her family that she turns to first, we have not been cut out and do have a lovely relationship with our son's children. We have been able to work with her expectations and accept the kind of relationship that she is happy with and as the children have got older the situation has changed and eased. My point is that while I feared we would be cut off completely we weren't and so could work with her expectations. How do you begin to do that if you are denied all contact and are faced with the kind of hostility and aggression that some of the regular contributors have described. I can only begin to understand the pain that must caused because I feared it would be my situation too.

If you haven't been in that situation it might be difficult to understand why people respond to situations as they do, why the pain and sensitivity cant just be brushed away or forgotten. What I am trying to say is that I agree with Mums70 If you don't understand how people here are feeling just why do you feel that you have to come here and say so, sometimes in a very aggressive manner.

While in many ways Gransnet is a great place to come and share ideas and experiences, it does have its fair share of people who think it is OK to say what they think without any worry about the feelings of others. Interestingly they are often the first to complain at the way others express themselves!

I started to contribute to another thread on a different topic a while back when the same thing happened as has just happened here. Someone joined in to take regular contributors to task for their views in what seemed like a deliberately confrontational way and that ended with one of the regular contributors withdrawing from Gransnet completely. That experience has made me very very wary of posting at all. Most Gransnetters are lovely and welcoming but there are some who only seem to come for an argument and don't seem to mind how much upset that causes

I visit this thread from time to time to see whether there has been a happy ending to some of the stories, sadly that is not often the case. I hope that for all of the regular contributors here this thread settles down again so that it can provide the mutual support that they come here for.

How lovely to see that you've posted on here again Mums70. Thank you for your public support it means a lot. I hope that Yogagirl will come on and read the posts so she'll know how much she's appreciated.for you.

KatyK. Can I ask what made you realise that it was your own jealousy and pettiness?
Did someone else point it out and you listened? Or did you come to your own conclusions?

A general question to the three regulars on this thread.
Do you say sorry at all? Because we all do make mistakes at times and need to say sorry. That is human.

Before something like this ( people just stop talking to family members) I would not have believed it could happen. Fortunately it didn't involve GC.
My BIL called in on his Mother every single day without fail. Then out of the blue he just stopped, no mention of what had happened (from him)
My dear sweet MIL went to her grave never knowing what went wrong.
If it had been my family I would have asked. But the Brothers don't communicate on any emotional level.

Yes Soontobe I do say sorry. When I know myself that I've done or said something I shouldn't have I apologize. If it's something that's been pointed out to me, I apologize then too. There have of course been occasions when I've inadvertently given offence and so an apology will be made.

I fear that I will be like your m.i.l. Petra and will go to my grave without ever knowing for certain what's caused this terrible rift in our family. Justifications have been made but are not based in truth; questions have been asked but truthful answers never given.

Thank you for your contribution Meercat. I'm sorry that because of a few you've been made wary of posting on GN. Your post was very touching, made more so by knowing that you're not always comfortable coming on to have your say. It's nice to know that you come on from time to time to catch up. I wish we'd had some happy endings but these still seem to be evading us. We do some times have a laugh though and I hope that when we do, you see those posts too. for you.

PS I think the nearest we got to the truth was last summer when we were concerned about our son and popped down (he lives a few minutes walk away on the same road) to see if he was OK.

I wanted to talk to him, but after opening the door and saying he was fine he went to go back inside again. We could hear our d.i.l. inside slamming doors. I had tears in my eyes, stretched out my hand toward him and said his name. He simply said "we mustn't do this, it causes too much trouble".

Your post reminded me of this Petra, the memory of it making me cry all over again and because of what you've said I think maybe we do know why; the relationship we had with our son caused too much trouble.

We had a busy up with s and then future dil over excluding my husbands parents! We tried and tried to repair rift that had been created (for having an opinion)!!! Dil refused to 'let it go' and continually pushed us out (although they didn't quite see it like that - as dil was extremely good at making it look as though it was us) until we decided not to play the game any longer upshot is that our son and dil started to include my m/fil and excluding us and to top it off my inlaws revelled in it and still are so now we have lost our son our gd and my husbands parents and they have lost their son, dil and other grandson - who might I add thinks they are all appalling for they way we've been treated!!! So in answer to some of the wailer post yes we tried - but sadly failed, due to a young woman who was only interested in HER family and here we are in this sad sad place

Your situation sounds very sad Smileless.

www.addictiontoday.org/files/addictiontoday145-sociopath-empath-apath-triad.pdf
I enclose this link as it may give some help for those who come on the thread and are critical because they think the regular posters are unable to say sorry and that it it always six of one and half a dozen of the other. Mabye a few years I would have agreed with them, but I would ask "have you ever encountered someone with a narcissist or sociopathic personality?
In many cases it is often a lot more than petty jealousies and personality conflict.

Whilst I have a good relationship with both DDs and SsiL it is not the same with one of my DDs MiL.
There was some rift between son and mother and he left home as soon as he could (16). She has four lovely grandchildren (2 children my SiL had with a previous partner) plus 2 DGC from my DD that she barely knows. She is close to her DD and her DGD from her daughter but is not particularly interested in her other son's children either!
SiL has made efforts at reconciliation and invited her to visit and she has once or twice. She has never sent a card or gift for the children on birthdays/ Christmas. She does send birthday cards to SiL which are quite OTT message wise considering she has no interest in his family or life!

Just pointing out that sometimes it can be the other way round!

Isn't life strange. On the one hand you have grand parents who just want to be a part of their children's and grand children's lives but have been cut out and on the other, grand parents who don't seem to realize just how fortunate they are.

How sad Penstemmon that your s.i.l.'s mother doesn't realize how blessed she is that despite the previous rift, he still wants her to be a part of his life and gives her that opportunity.

I must eat my words about not coming on here again (oh dear!) , as I really want to answer soontobe question on sorry. Even though,in my eyes, I had done & said nothing wrong, still I apologised. I asked his parents if they would set up a meeting and that I would apologise to their S (my s.I.l) if I had done of said anything to upset him and that if there was anything that I was doing to cause offence, I would change my ways. No reply from them. I sent emails to my D&s.I.l saying the same, no reply.
I do know however what I said to get me cut out; When I was on holiday with my other D, they (D&s.I.l) had a huge argument, my s.I.l was on the phone to me every half an hour, telling me his side of the story, but I couldn't get hold of my DD. We had only been away 24hrs and I now wonder if he planned the argument to coincide.
My D&I came back from our holiday to help. MyDD was in a terrible state, he refused to let her back into their families home & refused to let her see her C, even though the eldest is not his! He & his mother were so very cruel to her, I don't know how she could forget all that. Whilst my DD was staying with me, he allowed her to 'visit' her babies. I urged her to try & get back with him nicely as with two little ones life would be hard without a husband to help. He would have none of it, my DD phoned me to pick her up, then he came on the phone & I said to him "you realise Jenni will get custody of Laila, therefore Jack & it's the mother & children that stay in the family home, it's the man that leaves" with that his hate turned from Jenni onto me, he took her back & cut me out! So these are the words that got me cut out! Whilst he was phoning me on holiday, I was continually saying to him that he was a good dad to Laila & Jack & a good husband to Jenni, I always praised him. It was only after all this I realised his exstream personality disorder & that of his mothers.
I also arranged professional mediation that I went to be they refused.

Thank you Meercat for being brave enough to post. I have pm mums70 & said the same, would have pm'd you, but run out of time so for you both & for all the supportive posted
Not forgetting Smileless & * Celebgran* of course
Off to teach my two Sunday yoga classes now, without much sleep as we (the girls) were out bogging the night away last night

Sorry for typos, auto correct is a wonderful thing!

What a great way to begin the day; a post from you Yogagirl You've shared this before of course and it's just as ing and impossible to understand now, as it was before.

I understand why it's difficult to comprehend how such a terrible situation can come about from something that could have, and should have been talked through; you clearly did your best in a very difficult situation.

I understand how it can be difficult, even impossible to see how this terrible estrangement can come from nothing. We've been going through this for more than two and a half years and we still can't believe it .

So good to see you back on this thread for you.

I dont think there was anything more that you could do Yogagirl.

Thank you Smileless you're a poppit
And thank you soontobe soon to be what I wonder
[Wine] for later xx

I can see how these estrangements can come from nothing except the toxic nature of one person. This isn't in the same league as losing a grandchild, but I have a sister in law who has persuaded her husband to cut his brother (my DH) completely out of his life. You couldn't meet a kinder man than my DH but for some reason this woman wanted her husband all to herself. This couple now have no friends having alienated all his family, all his friends and all her own family.

It doesn't bother me at all as she's not the kind of person you'd want in your life anyway, but it upset my DH for years until he gave up on his brother.

So yes, I can see how people who have done nothing wrong end up in this awful situation. And toxic is a particularly appropriate description of them.

to all those who are grieving