ESTRANGEMENT- The silent epidemic! Let's get this out of the cupboard.

That's a really good point soontobe and raises another. Could it be in some cases that the adult child whose recently moved away and is needing constant reassurance from parents, ends up regarding that aspect of their relationship as interference by the parents? This was not the case for us, our ES's first house was 4 miles away and now he lives just down the road.

Perhaps a new partner regards these parents as interfering when all they're doing is what they believe, and may well have been led to believe was needed by their child.

When there's no communication, no possibility of discourse to try and identify what's gone wrong and then try and find a way to fix it, this can put a strain on the parents relationship with their other children; if you don't know what went wrong with one child, how can you prevent something going wrong with your other child/ren?

We were over joyed when our GC was born, the joy was short lived. We'd be over joyed if our other S had children but I think we'll be afraid too. Afraid of losing our only other child and his child along with him.

There's the old saying that lightening doesn't strike twice in the same place, but some times is does.

The Family Law Act 1975 in Australia says that 'children have a right to spend time on a regular basis with, both their parents and other people significant to their care, welfare and development' (such as a Grandparent or other relative).

I believe the child has all the rights not the parent or grandparent. If there has been a close relationship between the grandparent and grandchild it is a terrible thing to never see their grandparent again until they grow up. That is really cruel and must cause a lot of grief and sadness to many children.

Legislation needs to be changed and it isn't an impossibility.

I cant see how it is enforceable.

I suspect in your case Smileless, that the problem really lies with your Son's partner.
So I dont think that the same thing would necessarily happen again with your other son.

How much do you know about the relationship between your son and his partner?

Not much forgiveness is the key ; but to forgive in reality is to understand what it is to have made a mistake, feel remorse and apologise . Forgiveness is in short supply if the person believes they are fault free always in the right and others are to blame . I made many many mistakes , apologise but whether others can accept is another matter .:-(

Well before I begin, I'll apologize now for the length of this post. Her parents were friends of ours for several years before they met, her mother and I were really quite close.

Her parents had a very volatile relationship (they split up about 18 months ago), always falling out with one another, family and friends before making up and doing it all over again. Strangely they never fell out with us .

Their relationship moved very quickly, with her moving in with our ES within only a couple of months of meeting. They would come over and when our other S was here she'd make no secret of the fact that she didn't like being excluded from any conversation between the brothers. Some times she'd be quite sulky and although we'd do our best to 'bring her round', we didn't fall over our selves either. Once they were invited over, accepted and then she cried off at the last minute so our S came alone. I thought he was joking when he said she wasn't coming, we were having a BBQ and as she's a veggie, food was bought in especially.

The day they got engaged she looked in to my eyes and said "I have only child syndrome, I don't share"I was rathered but had no idea how those words would come to haunt me.

That said I thought we were getting along very well. I genuinely loved her, being demonstrative I would always give her a hug and kiss once we got to know her better and she willingly reciprocated. They had a huge row before they married, she didn't like my S keeping me company when at theirs, I'd go outside for a cigarette; she didn't like the frequency with which he'd 'phone or pop in to see me. He told me about this and that he'd told her we'd always been very close and that wouldn't change. A few months later she told me about that row, I didn't let her know I already knew, she said she'd been jealous of our relationship, hers had not been good with her own parents and she hadn't understood that it was normal for children and parents to be so close; she understood now and it was no longer an issue.

They married abroad because she'd fallen out with her own parents and didn't want them at her wedding. We have a property in Florida and that's where they were married; DH and I were the only guests. The night before the wedding our S and his dad went to a motel. Her and I stayed up late, drinking champagne, she plucked my eyebrows and supplied me false eye lashes, I gave her a manicure.

DH and I organised a surprise stretch limo so when the car arrived I told her the taxi had arrived, I can still remember the look of joy when she saw that car and the tears in her eyes as she thanked me. They spent their wedding night in a hotel and the next day DH and I collected the wedding cake we'd ordered, bought champagne and decorated the entire pool area with balloons and garlands. I even got artificial rose petals and made a huge heart on their bed.

So that's what it was like, we loved her and thought she loved us, on more than one occasion she said how she wished we'd been her parents. They moved to the same village and live just down the road. ES said they wanted to near free child care. She became pregnant and things started to change. Bizarre accusations were made; I'd snubbed her, put the 'phone down on her, ignored her. ES appeared to take little notice, mentioning them to me and always concluding with how she must have been mistaken because I wouldn't do that sort of thing.

They found out they were having a son of their own and then the promised child care was taken away, despite us having spent a lot on all the equipment that would be needed, he would go to a childminder for "stress free and reliable child care". The after he was born and we were due to meet our little GS for the first time, she'd invited a friend along as well. ES wasn't happy and put the friend off. When we arrived you could have cut the atmosphere with a knife.

If we just popped in (which we rarely did without letting them know) we were too intense, when we pulled back we were accused of not caring, not being supportive etc.

Things went from bad to worse, we didn't see her at all and little of our S and GS. He brought him down for a couple of hours on two or three occasions but didn't stay with him. There was tension with our ES but all was civil and we really thought things were slowly improving. The last time was a week before our 3 weeks holiday. ES collected GS, wished us a safe journey and good holiday. A week later we went away and 3 weeks after arrived home. 5 days after that was our ES's bday so I 'phoned to wish him a happy bday and tell him his card and present were here for him. I didn't deliver my message because after dialing I heard a recorded message "the person you are calling is not accepting calls from this number", our number had been blocked, and so as it turned out had we.

Thanks for that.
I suppose I have a couple of questions.

Do you think she had postnatal depression, which may have caused her to change?

Do you think that she was wanting you to be a mum to her which she didnt have before? Then either changed her mind about that and felt perhaps a bit disloyal to her own parents? Or something you said or did[not deliberately] made her think that there was no chance, and she turned against you?

I am a bit clutching at straws, but thought I would ask the questions anyway. Nothing to lose.

Otw.
I am not sure why you are not putting a brief outline of your situation on this thread? You dont have to of course.
I only look on mumsnet occasionally, as do a lot of us on here, so we wont have seen you posts on there.

Otw10413 I do applaud your efforts to increase awareness of estrangement.
Still unsure of your objectives.
Over 1 million children denied contact with grandparents. Over 7000 grandparents have applied to court in last 3 years.
There are several online programs giving statistics.
A new one is 'Stand Alone' Some of our GNs are very knowledgeable. -send me pm if you want more info.
I've told my story on other threads. -My son and I and paternal relatives denied all contact with my only GS for 4 years now.even though he lives only 1 mile away.Living alone makes it harder.
Apologies,mediation impossible when all communication is blocked!!

Thanks for having the patience to read such a long post soontobe. As far as I'm aware PND was not an issue. ES never said she had this and before all communication ceased, I know he'd have had something if that had been the case.

I'd never considered the possibility that she'd ever really wanted me to be a mother to her and not just a m.i.l. I'm sure there would have been an internal conflict especially when she fell out with both of her parents. After their marriage and during her pregnancy they begin to mend bridges. Our S, because of what had happened didn't want any contact with them but went with her for moral support and eventually managed to reconcile with them him self.

There could be something in your second question as now she's in regular contact with both parents and we've been cut out all together but I can't help but feel it's her jealousy of my relationship with our S that's the main reason. It was a very strange thing to have said to me, the day they became engaged. I wonder if things would have been as bad if they'd had a daughter instead of a son.

It seems she ultimately didn't want to 'share' her husband, our S with us and me in particular so perhaps by the same token she wasn't prepared to share her own either.

What ever her reasons though it's his behavior that truly baffles and hurts the most. The bizzare accusations made initially and refuted by him are now believed, as are the ones that have followed, he's even come up with a few rather unpleasant ones himself.

Your questions have certainly given food for thought, so thank you for that.

Good griefI had no idea so many grand parents and grand children were effected by this. Thanks for the info Maniac. Living alone must be hard when going through some thing like this.

Yes it is hard Smileless
Maniac thanks for the info, out of the 7000, how many got the visitation order? I went to court, but wasn't successful, I didn't have a lawyer & realised after that one was much needed to talk the talk.

What a strange thread! It seems to wander all over the place.
I'm a pragmatic person and apart from some cases of genuine personality clash, I think another reason that generations have drifted apart is because we are much more geographically mobile than in the past. Our family is a good example - when I was a child we lived with one set of grandparents, the others around the corner. Now our grandchildren are all over the world.
Another reason - maybe just in the western world - the trend to resort to litigation when any life problem arises.
Thank God our extended family is still on speaking terms with eachother.

If the Australian government can do it, so can the UK one.

Time for a Gransnet sponsored campaign?

It is unenforceable.
Yes- you can have a contact order- but the parent has to cooperate and talk about grandparents nicely when they are not there- encourage them to draw birthday cards etc.
You can't expect it to work with a resentful parent being forced to give contact.
If you want a meaningful, loving and warm relationship with grandparents you have to heal whatever went wrong in the parent/child relationship.

Yes. That is the ideal Leticia. But, in the extreme cases when the family members just can't agree, there should be professional counselling available, followed by Court intervention If that fails.

I can see how a visitation order can get some parents the ability to see their children.
Do they exist for grandparents?

If there was forced grandparent contact, I would have thought that a parent could spend the rest of the time saying nasty things about a grandparent. Though that might happen anyway, in which case it would be a good thing I would have thought.

I really wish I had not gone to court, it made it a thousand times worse. I acted quickly because I missed my D&GC so, so much, I couldn't stand it!
If I'd have had the knowledge on this subject of estrangement back then, I would never have gone there. As I now realize, the parents can do all sorts of things to sabotage the visits; their sick, school visit,on & on, and of course saying bad things about the GP. But many in the same situation who didn't go to court and played the waiting game, still didn't get to see their beloved GC. So damned if you do, damned if you don't!
Grandparents have no rights!

Exactly, soontobe. Unless the parent and grandparents can reconcile it simply won't work. I wouldn't want to see my grandparents, if my mother was really upset by it.
Not much chance of a lovely time if the mother is resentfully muttering about 'that * woman' all the way there!!

Sorry-there was supposed to be a row of asterisks!

Quite right yogagirl, you get a court order but so what what? Probably 10 times worse!

leticia Do you get to see your GC?

I have not as yet got any! ( probably not too long to wait). Most if my friends have and it does mean that I can sit back and observe.

It is a fact that 'rights' won't get you anywhere. A good relationship with grandchildren takes more than a contact order. I am only too well aware of the power of the parent. I worked hard to keep my ILs part of the family after my DH died and it isn't just having visits ( that need to be frequent) it is talking about them, speaking in the phone, inviting to concerts etc, drawing them pictures, having a relaxed relationship yourself where MIL can feel free to go in the kitchen and make herself a cup of tea, they can stay in your home overnight and babysit when you go away etc etc etc. I managed this even when I remarried and they became equal grandparents to the subsequent children. A lot of people don't manage that with a new partner.
I could very easily have 'done my bit' with a duty visit twice a year - missed all the rest- and on that basis my son would not have had a lovely relationship with his grandparents. ( but it would have fulfilled the grandparent's 'rights'.

Rather then having a Gransnet campaign for 'rights' you need to heal the relationship with the middle people- the grandchildren's parents. Unless you have that you can't have the good relationship with a forced contact order placed on resentful parents. Your only hope is that they might seek you out when they are adults and agree that their parents were toxic- sad all round.

I think a support group is the best idea- with a separate forum.

Leticia your son and former in laws are indeed fortunate that you ensured they had a lovely relationship and how wonderful that your first husband's parents became equal grand parents to subsequent children. for you.

Leticia as you haven't got any grandchildren you cannot possibly understand how we feel about our grandkids. Or how important they are in our lives, and, I think, we in theirs.

Are you by any chance a Mumsnetter who stayed on here after the recent forced visit?

Perhaps you could instruct the grandparents on here exactly how they should go about mending broken relationships with unfeeling grown-up children. You make it sound so easy. You must be very wise and very skilled in human relationships. So do share your knowledge.

"Observe". Oh yes. That's what all the so-called "experts do".