AIBU to think this is bonkers?

I agree, jane, that any pressure to proceed with this pregnancy probably came from the woman and I agree that it seems unethical on the part of the medics to agree to her demands if that was the case, but without further details I'm not willing to condemn them by stating categorically that they did wrong. It is not the first case of pregnancy by artificial insemination of a woman in her sixties.

Could you specify what "wider societal issues" you had in mind when you used that phrase?

It is totally unethical on the part of the medical team concerned and selfish on the part of the woman. Also, if I was altruistic enough to be an egg donor, I would hope that my gift was for a couple or a woman who have not been able to conceive their own child and would be young and fit enough to take care of the resulting child or children. There is also the issue of the vociferous groups who are anti abortion/anti IVF/anti-stem cell therapy etc., this gives them fuel to criticise and condemn the medical treatments and therapies that are on the very edge of science. Overall, i think it is very sad, for the egg and sperm donor, for the children and for the woman herself who will likely not live to see her children reach full adulthood.

Grandchildren are not likely to have the benefit of a grandmother either.

I don't think wanting to have children in your sixties is wrong in absoute terms even though it's not a choice I and the vast majority of other women would make. Nor do I think it wrong in absolute terms for a medical team doing research on the limits of human reproductive biology to inseminate a woman who wants to be inseminated with donated sperm and eggs.

So I wouldn't say this whole thng was unethical in absolute terms either.

Children have grown up and have lived without grandmothers before quite a lot.

Choosing courses of action which might possibly result in some sadness in the future is not unethical either.

I dont think grandmothers are the issue here to be honest. It is having a parent who is able to take care of you.

I never knew any of my grandparents. I can't imagine wanting more children in my 60s. I have friends who have had children in their late 30s/early 40s and they have said they hated standing at the school gates with all the young mums. We are all different though.

The quads (if they all survive) will have a lot of older brothers and sisters, who will make an extended family to help look after them if their parents find it too much, and give a younger perspective as they grow up. The lack of grandparents will be counteracted in a way by having older parents.

In previous centuries, when maternal mortality was far greater, and parents in general died younger than they do today, the equivalent was probably the late child born to a woman in her forties. Those children were brought up by older siblings, and did OK.

My own mother was 20 when her little sister was born (her mother was 45) and saw a great deal of her, to the extent that she and I (5 years younger) were often taken for sisters, not aunt and niece. Still are, to tell the truth.

It is not something that I would do - I have had my turn and that was enough - but we are all different.

I feel sorry for the children when they are in their teens and introducing their friends to their mother who would be by then old enough to be their great granny.

I'm older than the (young) grandparents of some of Minibags's peers. She used to boast about it.

My mother always looked very old for her age. She had a terrible life with my father which wore her down. She was 44 when my youngest sister was born and died when this sister was 14. I was always ashamed to be seen with my mother (I obviously regret this now). She looked like my grandmother and all the mums of my school friends looked much younger, I hated it. I know women look younger and take better care of themselves these days but I think 'just because you can, doesn't mean you should' is a very good adage.

Doesn't mean you shouldn't either.

There are some very disapprovingly judgmental people on this thread.

I'm not disapproving really. I just know how I felt with my own mother I also know that it used to upset my mum when people asked if we were her grandchildren. It seems quite selfish to me. However, it's entirely up to them obviously.

I don't think it's selfish. Well, it might be, but I also wonder if some (very few) women simply have the natural biological urge to procreate rather more than others. I wouldn't call that selfish. It's just how they are. Live and let live, I say.

bags I'm rushing to pack to go away but briefly - societal issues
1. I don't think it's right for anyone male or female, in a developed country, to have 17 children, when we are all fully aware of the environmental impact of overpopulation.
2. Medicine, and medical research is being used as a lifestyle choice rather than a therapeutic intervention.
While you can argue that all reproductive medicine is a lifestyle choice, I think there's a stark difference between providing IVF treatment for a couple who have been unable to conceive naturally, and are desperate for a child of their own, and using those same techniques to satisfy one woman's vanities.

I know we don't know the full background and story, but nothing would convince me that this woman would have been psychologically damaged if her wish to have another child hadn't been fulfilled.

Must go. Will post later if I think of anything else

I don't disapprove, I just worry for her, and for the child. Having said that, maybe its siblings will help to care for it, and bring it up, but should they have to? It does make me think how I and my family would cope in the same situation. My main feeling would be one of selfishness I think, knowing how much help I would probably need in the future.

Thanks, janea. I thought your reservations would be alon those lines.

Happy travels. I look forward to hearing about them.

Re the first reservation, I think that since so very few women in developed countries actually do want to have large numbers of children, and since there are extremes at the ends of any normal curve of distribution, whatever the subject in question, we should just tolerate the few who do make what seem to most of us to be weird choices.

Re the second, yes, it is a lifestyle choice thing in this case, but quite often research done in cases like this throws up new insights and knowledge that then benefit the wider community. The benefits are quite often unrelated to the original issue too.

i'm not in favour of healthy women in the prime of life deliberately embarking on a multiple pregnancy. They are more risky for the babies.
Prematurity is an obvious risk and this in its turn, as everyone knows, brings increased risk of death and disability. If it was the NHS there is the increased risk of occupying baby unit cots. This care is very expensive and often tiny babies have to be farmed out to hospitals miles away. e.g. a baby i know of from Swansea had to go to Winchester for a cot.
How would you feel if your premature grandchild had to be shipped to the other side of the country because the local unit was full of quads.
If the babies go close to term a vaginal delivery is more risky for twins etc.
I can understand why some childless women desperate for a pregnancy do take the risk of IVF with more than one embryo.
If the mother's body is getting on a bit she is inevitably less likely to have a healthy pregnancy. There are known risks to having a lot of babies - takes its toll on the mother's body.

It is interesting for me to look back on when I first set out in medical social work. My first job was in a maternity hospital and quite a lot of time was spent advising infertile couples about adoption. I had to tell them that most adoption agencies would not accept parents over the age of 30 - how times change!

bags, do you really think that this woman was thinking in terms of a scientific experiment when she intiated this process?

No. But I am on behalf of the medics whom some people are saying have acted unethically. I don't think they have.

I'm not disagreeing with people's reservations. I feel them too. I'm just arguing another angle, trying to look at it from another point of view.