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Brexit is it final??

(145 Posts)
Cindersdad Sun 26-Feb-17 15:16:13

Like almost 16,000,000 I voted Remain and do respect the result of the referendum. However the whole exercise was so flawed and the long term effects as yet unknown that I feel Parliament and may be the people should have another chance when the final terms are known. Tony Blair (whom I can never forgive for Iraq) spoke many truths about Brexit particularly one at all costs. The situation in Europe is changing and we may be better off out of it but only time will tell and when it does Parliament should be free to vote and perhaps call the whole thing off.

durhamjen Mon 27-Feb-17 09:01:17

I agree about Anna Soubry, Cindersdad. I was quite surprised.
When they talk about the will of the people, there must have been a lot of MPs went against their constituency vote, as the will of the people was only 52-48.

whitewave Mon 27-Feb-17 09:02:27

The tautology " the will of the people" is utterly meaningless unless you include the whole of the UK.

Ankers Mon 27-Feb-17 09:26:34

The will of the people is the will of the people on the referendum day of those eligible to vote.

I really do think people need to move on from that.

Do you never in life, take a majority vote of something, and then accept it?

so 53:48 or 50.001 to 49.999 is still a MAJORITY vote. Tough cheddar.

durhamjen Mon 27-Feb-17 09:40:46

Read the rest, Ankers. It doesn't matter what I think, or what I accept. There will be many MPs who voted for article 50 when the majority of their constituents voted to remain. They are the ones who could lose their seats at the next election.
That possibly includes Theresa May, which could be why she does not want to call an early election.

DeeWBW Mon 27-Feb-17 09:53:03

A democracy, remember? Can you imagine what it would be life if the rule of the (as quoted on the 23rd. June 2016) 'small man in the street', the real person who suffers, was overruled? We would no longer be a democracy. What could that lead to? I always remember reading a very interesting piece - what is the difference between a dictatorship and a democracy? The answer? In a democracy, when there's knock on your door at 4.00 a.m. in the morning, you know it's the milkman. The 'real' people of any country lay at the mercy of others. The 'real' people spoke. Isn't that what it is all about?

Jalima Mon 27-Feb-17 09:55:46

djen thankyou for the link to the case of Irene Clennell (although I can't see what it has to do with Brexit as she is Singaporean).

Another arbitrary decision as I mentioned before, where rules are interpreted far too rigidly. I understand there will be a campaign to try to get her case looked at again and the decision reversed.

ExaltedWombat Mon 27-Feb-17 09:56:07

On a point of information, MissAdventure, the people didn't 'vote woth their feet', they voted at a ballot box. This illustrates perfectly the way the Brexit issue has been fought with misunderstood slogans.

radicalnan Mon 27-Feb-17 09:57:05

Rather like all ex's, the EU treated us with disdain and when we left, they feign surprise and regret. Just as in romance, going back is never successful and in the case of the EU, if we stayed, what would we be staying in? EU is all over the place now and my fear is, we would be left holding a huge political and financial leave with some dignity intact and get on with our own lives.

There is always someone / something new out there, even if it is only yourself.

rosesarered Mon 27-Feb-17 10:00:05

Good post DeeW smile

Rosina Mon 27-Feb-17 10:01:05

It's amazing how many people are all for democracy until the result isn't what they want. Yes, this is a major decision, but so is the result of a general election and you don't usually hear clamour for another go at voting. There is so much controversy so I might as well add to it. We are leaving a trade agreement - and if we are to believe what we are told there are countries eager to trade with us. The EU will trade with us; not on current terms obviously, but give our savings from exit we may well be no worse off - and have our sovereignty.

rosesarered Mon 27-Feb-17 10:01:33

....and radicalnan smile no, we don't want that huge baby!

durhamjen Mon 27-Feb-17 10:04:26

Jalima, I put the link on here as it's to do with immigration. Reducing the number of immigrants was one of the reasons people gave for voting for Brexit. Just reminding people what that means.
Most of the hate after Brexit was directed at non-Europeans., jus people who looked foreign being told to get out of this country.

The reason there is going to be a campaign is because her sister in law started a justgiving page for her. That's not how justice should be carried out post- Brexit, through the kindness of strangers.

janchristo Mon 27-Feb-17 10:05:11

I find myself agreeing with all of Cindersdad's measured and thoughtful comments. A 2 million margin between leave and remain was too close to say that 'the people' elected to leave the EU. Since June 2016, it has been revealed time and again how 'leave' was fundamentally a vote by those who felt disenfranchised and ignored and were misinformed. They wanted their voices to be heard but hadn't realistically considered the long-term outcomes of their decision. The lies, deceit and downright wrongdoings behind the scenes now being exposed should make the referendum invalid. A time to reflect and take stock is needed and the government should find the guts and integrity to put Brexit on hold and admit the whole process was seriously flawed.

durhamjen Mon 27-Feb-17 10:06:59

Sorry, Dee, we are no longer a democracy, then, when someone can be put on a plane with £12 in her pocket because she comes from a different country. She had a knock on the door and it wasn't a milkman.

Anan Mon 27-Feb-17 10:19:03

Who will give Parliament and the people another chance if the Brexit negotiations are unacceptable? Only the other members of the EU!
I agree that the campaign was deeply flawed and I have never heard one convincing reason to leave. A lot has been shouted about democracy. There is Parliamentary democracy with all its checks and balances, which has served us very well. Then there is the so called democracy of the referendum, or mob rule. If we had relied on referenda we should still have slavery, capital punishment, forcible repatriation of immigrants etc. This referendum was manipulated by much of the press and the arch Brexiteers who are enjoying their Empire building. I fear for this country and the civil unrest that will follow the unintended consequences of leaving the EU.

whitewave Mon 27-Feb-17 10:20:28

People are still fighting the referendum on here, it is a useless argument. You need to get your minds around what next. And next is what sort of uk do we want

Arry Mon 27-Feb-17 10:23:03

Tony Blair speaking the truth!!! That will be the day!

Lilyflower Mon 27-Feb-17 10:33:28

It is a myth that Brexit supporters did not know what they were doing. They knew exactly what they were voting for and the fear campaign before and subsequently has only provided more reason to think they were right in wanting to leave an authoritarian, corrupt, financially moribund, undemocratic, federalising 'projet' led by political demagogues.

That said, I voted 'Leave' (obviously) but I would have been happy to 'Remain' had that been the decision. I remember being distinctly anxious when the result was announced as I forsaw that it was not going to be an easy road to travel.

NfkDumpling Mon 27-Feb-17 10:38:57

I think few people really believed we'd be banning all immigration, or injecting vital workers here legitimately. More that we'd be able to have control over it. At the moment anyone with an EU passport can walk in from anywhere in Europe but people from Commonwealth countries like Australia or Canada have to jump through hoops. A level playing field is all I ever asked for.

foxie Mon 27-Feb-17 10:44:09

Yes it is final and the sooner we rid ourselves of the EU bureaucratic yoke the better off we'll all be. We keep hearing that the referendum process was deeply flawed but I have yet to hear or read how exactly. The EU is a sinkhole of hard earned taxpayers money to the tune of around £86 billion annually and the UK government is borrowing to pay which is a crazy situation to say the least. I love Europe but NOT what the EU has become.

Kim19 Mon 27-Feb-17 10:45:22

Seriously........we all know only death is final. The daily situation in each of our lives can change dramatically and that's without the help of the Brexits of this world which will also change on a daily basis. These ongoings simply serve to employ politicians and journalists and, unfortunately, to seriously worry many of us. I am certainly very interested in the current world situation. Fascinating and intriguing. I love that so many of us are thinking about our national situation. Helps in deciding how to vote on next occasion. When I'm on the 'losing' side of an election result I just 'dust myself off' even although all the 'winning' voters got it wrong!! Onwards..........

Womble54 Mon 27-Feb-17 10:51:44

It’s an extremely complicated argument but I’d like to make the following points. Firstly that the Referendum hasn’t created divisions within British society so much as exposed those that were already lurking below the surface. For example the way that, without any real evidence, Leave voters were branded thick, uneducated, knuckle-dragging bigots etc., who didn’t know what we were voting for. Now we know what “they”, the Camerons, Osbornes Bransons and Geldofs, the Emma Thompsons really think of us. Having said that, many of the clues were already there in the excuses given for employing cheap labour from Eastern Europe – the British were perfectly happy on benefits (some of us were very far from being so), too lazy and unmotivated to do those jobs, never mind that we were never given the choice in the first place, many such vacancies being advertised abroad. No, it was, and is, all about MONEY, concentrating it into the hands of fewer and fewer people. The fat cats haven’t had to put up with the conditions the rest of us have, overcrowding of the infrastructure, the increasing difficulty of accessing NHS services etc. Hopefully Teresa May appreciates the impossibility of keeping the lid on this simmering cauldron for much longer.

durhamjen Mon 27-Feb-17 10:53:54

Injecting them with what,NFK?

piscarii Mon 27-Feb-17 10:59:24

I voted to leave.
I am continuously being told by my self appointed 'betters' - "you poor little soul, you need help, you didn't know what you were voting for.
How insulting.
How 'superior'.
How snobbish.
I took a step back and looked at 'Europe' in the cold light of day and made my decision.
We leavers are not idiots and it makes me angry to be patronised.

It was you, the remainers, who didn't know what you were voting for.

Ramblingrose22 Mon 27-Feb-17 11:02:37

Anan is spot on!

Cameron was pressurised by the Tory hard right and UKIP to promise a refereundum in the 2015 election manifesto. A complicated subject like EU membership should never have been used for a refereundum.

Added to which, most referendums require a margin of - say - 10% for a majority, not a simple majority where just one vote will do.

Unfortunately the EU has become a huge bureaucracy with rules that don't suit every country. Cameron should have negotiated harder instead of coming back with pathetic concessions that convinced no-one.

We have been badly let down by our politicians because they would not address people's genuine and reasonable fears about immigration. The Government's austerity programme has made poorer people poorer and big businesses have grown richer by allowing them to pay immigrants less than the minimum wage which is never enforced.

Worst of all, the Government isn't being held to account when there is a dysfunctional opposition led by a well-meaning puppet operated by left wing nutters.

Welcome to life in a one-party state!