carers not doing their job

Football teams etc DO have to include people with disabilities of they’re a social group. If they’re competitive and selecting people on skill then plenty of non-disabled people will be excluded as well and it’s not an issue.

This sounds like a social knitting group. There is no reason to exclude anyone.

It’s a hugely important job MissAdventure with a lot of responsibility. Especially if giving meds etc. It is very undervalued. Needs a massive cash injection from government so that commissioners can afford to pay providers to pay their staff at an appropriate rate.

It is difficult annsixty particularly since so much of the community education classes was scrapped.

I used to teach literacy, numeracy and IT for the LEA. In the last few years we had ended up having groups of very mixed abilities. Students with special needs joined classes not aimed at them because there was no suitable class available. Lots of effort was put into making it possible for special needs students to join classes and it did require extra preparation with risk assessments, identifying aids, etc., but help was available to do this.

Fortunately the students in most of my classes had individual learning plans and once the basic barriers were overcome, the way we managed having special needs students in the group was having more volunteers in the class, usually on a one to one basis. Most of these students wanted to be in a class of all abilities and I'll be honest, to begin with a lot of the students without special needs were wary of the special needs students - basically because they had so little experience of being around people with disabilities. I remember one student with quadriplegia cerebral palsy in an IT class who was very independent, but he had quite a severe speech impediment. Fortunately he was a very social person and the other students soon learned to 'tune in' to his speech patterns. I learned so much from that group.

But to answer your question about where does it end, personally I think it depends on the type of group and who is paying for the class. If I was paying to attend a class with the expectation of learning something new, then I would have something to say if any group member disabled or not, was disrupting the class for any reason - especially if I was working towards a qualification.

If the class is free, then as far as I'm concerned the more integration is possible, the better. There's too much discomfort and uneasiness about being in the company of people different from yourself (I'm not just talking about disability here) and classes are a great way of overcoming this.

BUT there are balances to be managed in any group and it's the group leader's job to do that. Part of managing the group means being aware and listening to all the members.

Gets off soap box

I was terrified when I first went to a house with people with learning disabilities.

My remark that "one of them must knit" was not a conservative attitude. I go to lots of activity groups and if it is an art group, I expect to do art, if it is a knitting group I would expect to knit and meet and chat with similarly minded people If it was a coffee morning or something similar I would expect to chat and meet people.

Even a knit and natter group I would take some sort of needle work as that is the theme of the group. If too many people come who are not following the theme the name should be changed as I would be very disappointed to go to a knitting group where no one knitted.

The OP is upset as she felt the carer in both situations were not doing their job. I am guessing she feels the group is about knitting, something she has a great interest in and the careers behavior was disrespecting the group. Maybe the carer was hoping that the people at the knitting group could teach her client to knit, so giving her an interest and help her exercise her hands but unfortunately that wasn't possible.

With that I had better get on with reading the book for my book group so I can be part of the discussion.

MissA apart from dyslexia, I had no experience of people with learning or physical disabilities before either. It was a steep learning curve for me.

Sometimes being inclusive does mean providing something different. I am a huge fan of special schools for example. Also a big supporter of relaxed theatre performances (because yes if you’ve paid £80 a ticket for the lion king - you want to be able to hear it and it makes the theatre accessible to people who would otherwise never try it) youtu.be/EQRdUDgxYzQ

All too often though health and safety or risk assessment is used as a reason to exclude. Two of the most inclusive communities I have come across are the surfing community and the horse riding community - of health and safety doesn’t get in the way of surfing or horse riding then it shouldn’t get in the way of many activities. There will always be some. For example my son (who has severe autism, severe learning disabilities, epilepsy and is non-verbal) could not go tobogganing at the local ski slope as we were concerned he would stick his leg out or try and leave the toboggan which would cause serious injury- but he can snow tube without problem.

I have also worked in a range of positions in the field of learning disabilities btw - so don’t just have a parent’s perspective.

I can imagine, Wilma. It was for me too. Its natural to be, lets say 'reticent' until you get to know someone, when they are different from what we're used to. That's why its important to include everyone as best you can. It enriches everyone. (Usually!!)

Nezumi keep an eye out on Groupon for discounts for snow tubing. I noticed when I was booking our panto tickets the theatre had relaxed performances. I'd not heard of this before - what a great idea!

I think the word 'carer' is misused so often. They don't really care - just push someone about in a wheelchair, and very often hide behind the fact that the person they are with us disabled. There's a great deal more to caring than that.

Yes indeed. Also, aren't there are some local bye-laws in some areas about food and drink not being allowed on buses?

Overthehill
Well for sure you do see life.
I am not one for groups having in the past experienced as a newcomer being treated like a child.ie don't sit there that is Mrs so and so's chair. Even if Mrs so and so hasn't turned up. Can't be doing with that, and, by the grace of the almighty I am not yet in need of a carer. I was brought up by a 'oh stop complaining, get on with it ' mother and this has left me with a don't stop until you drop attitude.
I have great admiration for carers be they family or those whose job it is and in the final year of DH life now realise I could not have coped without their help. I may have been one of the fortunate and had a great team but theirs can in many cases be a thankless job and from what I have been told working in conditions you would not put an animal
There will always be those who give the rest a bad name
and in view of the peanuts paid unless these carers are given a decent wage it will continue.

Surely the carer should be helping the person in wheelchair to knit. Tell them to come next to person to help them.

I know very well what should happen with regard to budgets and all that freedom of choice stuff but, in my considerable experience, talk is one thing but what actually happens at the sharp end is something else altogether!! I'm not saying that's a good thing. The intentions are great but how they filter down to massively reduced local authority budgets and extremely low paid staff is another.

As others have said carers aren't well paid and some do an outstanding job. Others "Attend", do very little work and care even less.

As for the folks in the wheelchairs, all I can say is poor souls. If that's the level of care they are receiving when their carers are being observed...

WHAT sort of disregard/neglect are they enduring in private??? That's what worries/angers me.

Re: the lady in the knitting group? If her carer doesn't care then her time in the group will have even more value for her. Not only will she have some social interaction but she may actually get some care.

Oh and some Kindness.

There is often a real lack of Kindness in caring. And for a lonely, dependant soul I'm sure a little kindness can go along way.

If Nesumi had explained her very understandable stance earlier in this conversation, I would also have understood where she was coming from.
I am still very angry with replies to my post but I would not have tried to play Devil's advocate so strongly. I do always TRY to see both sides.

annsixty there's nothing wrong with playing devil's advocate and your posts seemed perfectly reasonable to me.

True WilmaKnickersfit but sometimes playing Devil’s Advocate just earns you a kicking from both sides.

I haven’t read your post yet Annie but I’ll backtrack and do that now. However I can’t imagine it would be anything but reasonable.

My personal & professional experience has little to do with it tbh.

It just isn’t acceptable to say inclusion is ok up to a point for disability any more than it’s okay to say equal opportunities for women are ok up to a certain point, or including people from other cultures is okay up to a certain point.

There is no reason for someone sitting quietly in wheelchair to be excluded from a social knitting group.

Thanks for the groupon suggestion Wilma - always on the look out for that sort of thing!

Incidentally if you do see a carer you are concerned about (especially if they are with someone with learning disabilities or someone with difficulties communicating) then report them! You can usually find out where they’re from.

My son was out with 2 carers recently who moved very close to him as they walked past a dog. Anyway the carers were reported by the dog walker who for whatever reason didn’t like what they saw. The carers had actually done exactly the right thing - he does need people either side of him near dogs. The thing is they didn’t mind being reported as they were pleased people care enough to report if that makes sense.

People have also over the years reported when theh have observed things that shouldn’t have happened. My husband and I have always been incredibly grateful.

Maybe the lady in the wheelchair didn’t want todo anything on the first visit, just sit and watch and listen. I went to a patchwork group and did nothing, just sat and watched what was going on and seeing if it was something I wanted to do. Also someone made me a drink and I am not in a wheelchair. Just maybe this lady wanted to do the same and the carer understood this or had been told that was want she wanted before she went. So the carer took a step back. It happens with my daughter who despite needing a carer would just like sometime to feel like the rest of society and anyone who thinks carers are lazy, paid or unpaid, well just try it for a day.

It’s strange, but so often it doesn’t occur to a person to simply speak up in a polite manner. What would be the problem in simply saying to the person in the wheelchair something like ‘oh dear, I’ll get your carer’, or turning to the carer and saying ‘excuse me, the lady has spilled X on the floor’ and if necessary ‘we keep the clothes . . . ‘. Instead, so many people grumble on and on about something someone else is doing or not doing, without addressing it!

Cloths, ot clothes ?

'A wheelchair got on the bus'. Was there not a person in the wheelchair?