AIBU to think Jeremy Hunt is unfair to put conditions on the nurses pay rise

Paid for on expenses.

They would say that they don't get much holiday because they are 'working' - even on trips overseas.
'Fact-finding missions' or whatever.

I think it would be OK if MPs were to have similar conditions imposed. I wonder what the odds would be of acceptance??

Of course we can say it's wrong to ask nurses to have a day less holiday in order to have a pay rise, and if you don't agree you don't get a pay rise this year.

My guess re the revalation of the claw back of 1 day’s leave is that one side or the other ( or both) leaked it to see how it was received- a very well known tactic in negotiations and actually a very useful one

If talks are being held in secret, presumably those of us who are only getting information from news articles cannot know all the details, in which case I would argue that we cannot categorically say that any particular negotiating position is "just wrong" (or "just right" for that matter).

I don't think it's just assertiveness training they need I hope someone helps them with patience and relaxation they need both.
Indeed so, trisher. Ideally every worker who needs it should get help with patience and relaxation. One can self-help to some extent as well.

No - a qualified health care assistant with proper training and regulation- there are a very clear range of tasks that can be identified as suitable for this role. At the moment, it varies enormously I believe.

so (whispers) a new grade of qualified 'nurse' without a degree ?

I think Norman Lamb suggested that a few years ago.

‘Nurse’ is a’protected’ title ( like doctor) that can only be used by registered professionals. The idea of ‘assistant’ is widespread now in health and social care for a variety of reasons - eg physiotherapy assistant, social work assistant - it saves money but does also free up the qualified clinicians to take on the more specialist work. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with being called a health care assistant but there’s a lot wrong with their low pay and lack of training and regulation

Perhaps it is the name that should be changed - to include the word 'nurse'.

I suppose we need to differentiate between the contexts within which nurses are employed. I think the problem in hospitals is that most people who are patients are much iller and require more nursing and care than used to be the case as hospital stays get shorter. 50 years ago I had my appendix out and stayed in for the customary 10 days. It wasn’t long before I could get to the toilets independently, fetch my own food from the trolley and feed myself ( and help out other patients). The ward had a broad mix of immediately post op patients through to raring to get home fit as a fiddle ones and so the burden on staff was quite different. Now HCA are helping to care for much more seriously ill patients and I think that needs proper training and regulation. I’m not sure there is a space for a lower grade tbh

If they became more like SENs then that could mean that a new grade would be needed to do the work that they would not do.
I still think it would be better to re-introduce a grade of well-qualified nurse, a grade that did not require a degree, an excellent qualification but more practically based.
As far as I know, they could progress to staff nurse grade but not to sister or beyond without taking further qualifications.

NQTs start on about £800 more than nurses - but some (all?) will have done 4 not 3 years in higher education

What I think is needed is that health care assistants should be much better trained and have to be registered and regulated as nurses are.

About the same as a teacher.

The staring salary for a newly qualified nurse is just over £22k (Band 5)

I understand the need for degree level training of some nurses, bonnie. I don't think the difference between a degreed nurse and a health care assistant is always made clear. In general talk and news seems to be about "nurses".

I think that the old qualification of State Enrolment was a higher qualification than those required for a health care assistant, which would equate to the old 'nursing auxiliary' I think.
A new level between the degree-qualified nurse and the health care assistant - such as enrolment was - would be a good idea imo.

Every job in the NHS is on a particular ‘Band’ - health care assistants are on a lower band than a nurse obviously. Because there are many different kinds of nurses with different specialisms and different responsibilities obviously these different roles are assigned to different bands. The same is true of all other clinical staff ( except doctors and dentists) and all non clinical staff

This pay deal applies to all NHS staff except doctors and dentists. Some of the very lower paid staff will be getting higher amounts. It’s not just about nurses.

"The 14 health unions that have been negotiating the details of the government’s offer, in conditions of strict secrecy, are cautiously optimistic they will feel able to recommend it and that their members, who include Unison, Royal College of Nursing, Unite, the GMB and Chartered Society of Physiotherapists, will endorse it.

Sources close to the talks say they have been constructive, businesslike and highly detailed, with both sides keen to see NHS staff pay improved as much as possible. A plan for the chancellor Philip Hammond to unveil the offer in his Spring Statement next Tuesday has been abandoned, however, as there are still some sticking points to be resolved. "

From a Guardian article.
Why does the most open government ever have to do things in strict secrecy?

Does it matter?
The fact that it applies to any is wrong.

Baggs the staff in my local hospital wear different coloured uniforms and a notice on the wall says which colour is which role. Student nurses are sometimes hard to spot they wear white with their university name embroidered on it..
I don't think it's just assertiveness training they need I hope someone helps them with patience and relaxation they need both.

So, to get back to the OP, does this offer of a pay rise in exchange for a day's leave apply to all the nursing grades?

I understand the need for degree level training of some nurses, bonnie. I don't think the difference between a degreed nurse and a health care assistant is always made clear. In general talk and news seems to be about "nurses".

re Trisher's post, I do hope nurses and health care assistants are given assertiveness training that is relevant to their job so that they can cope with unreasonably demanding patients.

Exactly -health care assistants are still on wards, not everyone on the ward has, a nursing degree.