AIBU to think Jeremy Hunt is unfair to put conditions on the nurses pay rise

I don't think nurses should give up annual leave to be able to work without a full bladder and being able to have proper breaks, iam. I just said I would if that choice arose. Because I couldn't do the job otherwise.

I suspect quite a lot of nurses can't work with full effectiveness in such bad conditions too. Once in a blue moon is doable but if it hapoens more than once in a blue moon it must reduce work effectiveness, I reckon.

Which, when you think about it, is a daft way to run anything.

sodapop, I'm not a nurse but my experience of hospitals in recent months tells me we still have nursing assistants and qualified staff.
Our GP practice is being kept afloat by the number of nurse practitioners employed. We can no longer recruit GP's to what has always been an excellent medical practice.

I agree, sodapop. There should be grades of nursing qualifications. The ones who keep people clean and comfortable and make sure they are properly fed and watered do not need to have been to university. They need some training, obviously, but it doesn't need to be academic.

When my brother, now retired, was at medical school it was said then that there weren't enough doctors being trained. If that was true then the problem is very long-term and has persisted through several government administrations and probably got worse.

When I worked in hospitals there were: State Enrolled Nurses, whose job it was to maintain the patients' comfort (nourished, clean, comforted), State Registered Nurses who dealt with drugs, injections, IV, catheters etc., and a Ward Sister/Charge Nurse who had overall responsibility for patient care.

It worked well. The SENs did not need high expensive levels of training and did a very valuable job that was hugely appreciated by the patients.

The race to make all nurses graduates has not helped things - the jobs that used to be done by the SENs seem to be no-one's responsibility, and in the latter years I had many relatives worried sick that their loved-ones were not getting nourished even, as food was just left by their beds out of reach and no attempt made to ensure they had a way of ingesting the food. These were mainly head-injured people or those who had had strokes.

It really was the good old days cliche - the presence on the wards of folk from private companies with no personal commitment to the hospital just exacerbates the problems - cleaning, feeding etc. are all farmed out now.

One of the reasons why nurse's need degrees Baggs is because that as well as cleaning up the poo and sick and serving meals etc they are also increasingly doing tasks that would have been done by doctors! Before becoming a midwife my daughter worked in cardiac ICU where I was stunned at the responsibility she had for her £21,000 salary.

Of course there are still people attending to the patients' comforts, they are called health care assistants. I don't know which hospital trust you are writing about Luckygirl but I can tell you that that doesn't happen in my local hospital. All the staff (including student nurses who are on placement) do their best to make sure all the needs are met. Sometimes dealing with very difficult people, who demand toast instantly because they don't like the meal served, even though they have been told other patients haven't yet got their meal, or demand medication and argue if they don't get it.
The health care assistants of course are paid less and the student nurses aren't paid at all, in fact they are paying university fees. I do wonder sometimes why any of them put up with it.

It was the health care assistants that did the cleaning up, etc, when I was last at the hospital.

Exactly -health care assistants are still on wards, not everyone on the ward has, a nursing degree.

I understand the need for degree level training of some nurses, bonnie. I don't think the difference between a degreed nurse and a health care assistant is always made clear. In general talk and news seems to be about "nurses".

re Trisher's post, I do hope nurses and health care assistants are given assertiveness training that is relevant to their job so that they can cope with unreasonably demanding patients.

So, to get back to the OP, does this offer of a pay rise in exchange for a day's leave apply to all the nursing grades?

Baggs the staff in my local hospital wear different coloured uniforms and a notice on the wall says which colour is which role. Student nurses are sometimes hard to spot they wear white with their university name embroidered on it..
I don't think it's just assertiveness training they need I hope someone helps them with patience and relaxation they need both.

Does it matter?
The fact that it applies to any is wrong.

"The 14 health unions that have been negotiating the details of the government’s offer, in conditions of strict secrecy, are cautiously optimistic they will feel able to recommend it and that their members, who include Unison, Royal College of Nursing, Unite, the GMB and Chartered Society of Physiotherapists, will endorse it.

Sources close to the talks say they have been constructive, businesslike and highly detailed, with both sides keen to see NHS staff pay improved as much as possible. A plan for the chancellor Philip Hammond to unveil the offer in his Spring Statement next Tuesday has been abandoned, however, as there are still some sticking points to be resolved. "

From a Guardian article.
Why does the most open government ever have to do things in strict secrecy?

This pay deal applies to all NHS staff except doctors and dentists. Some of the very lower paid staff will be getting higher amounts. It’s not just about nurses.

Every job in the NHS is on a particular ‘Band’ - health care assistants are on a lower band than a nurse obviously. Because there are many different kinds of nurses with different specialisms and different responsibilities obviously these different roles are assigned to different bands. The same is true of all other clinical staff ( except doctors and dentists) and all non clinical staff

I understand the need for degree level training of some nurses, bonnie. I don't think the difference between a degreed nurse and a health care assistant is always made clear. In general talk and news seems to be about "nurses".

I think that the old qualification of State Enrolment was a higher qualification than those required for a health care assistant, which would equate to the old 'nursing auxiliary' I think.
A new level between the degree-qualified nurse and the health care assistant - such as enrolment was - would be a good idea imo.

The staring salary for a newly qualified nurse is just over £22k (Band 5)

About the same as a teacher.

What I think is needed is that health care assistants should be much better trained and have to be registered and regulated as nurses are.

NQTs start on about £800 more than nurses - but some (all?) will have done 4 not 3 years in higher education

If they became more like SENs then that could mean that a new grade would be needed to do the work that they would not do.
I still think it would be better to re-introduce a grade of well-qualified nurse, a grade that did not require a degree, an excellent qualification but more practically based.
As far as I know, they could progress to staff nurse grade but not to sister or beyond without taking further qualifications.

I suppose we need to differentiate between the contexts within which nurses are employed. I think the problem in hospitals is that most people who are patients are much iller and require more nursing and care than used to be the case as hospital stays get shorter. 50 years ago I had my appendix out and stayed in for the customary 10 days. It wasn’t long before I could get to the toilets independently, fetch my own food from the trolley and feed myself ( and help out other patients). The ward had a broad mix of immediately post op patients through to raring to get home fit as a fiddle ones and so the burden on staff was quite different. Now HCA are helping to care for much more seriously ill patients and I think that needs proper training and regulation. I’m not sure there is a space for a lower grade tbh

Perhaps it is the name that should be changed - to include the word 'nurse'.

‘Nurse’ is a’protected’ title ( like doctor) that can only be used by registered professionals. The idea of ‘assistant’ is widespread now in health and social care for a variety of reasons - eg physiotherapy assistant, social work assistant - it saves money but does also free up the qualified clinicians to take on the more specialist work. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with being called a health care assistant but there’s a lot wrong with their low pay and lack of training and regulation