AIBU to think Jeremy Hunt is unfair to put conditions on the nurses pay rise

so (whispers) a new grade of qualified 'nurse' without a degree ?

I think Norman Lamb suggested that a few years ago.

No - a qualified health care assistant with proper training and regulation- there are a very clear range of tasks that can be identified as suitable for this role. At the moment, it varies enormously I believe.

If talks are being held in secret, presumably those of us who are only getting information from news articles cannot know all the details, in which case I would argue that we cannot categorically say that any particular negotiating position is "just wrong" (or "just right" for that matter).

I don't think it's just assertiveness training they need I hope someone helps them with patience and relaxation they need both.
Indeed so, trisher. Ideally every worker who needs it should get help with patience and relaxation. One can self-help to some extent as well.

My guess re the revalation of the claw back of 1 day’s leave is that one side or the other ( or both) leaked it to see how it was received- a very well known tactic in negotiations and actually a very useful one

Of course we can say it's wrong to ask nurses to have a day less holiday in order to have a pay rise, and if you don't agree you don't get a pay rise this year.

I think it would be OK if MPs were to have similar conditions imposed. I wonder what the odds would be of acceptance??

They would say that they don't get much holiday because they are 'working' - even on trips overseas.
'Fact-finding missions' or whatever.

Paid for on expenses.

I have always held nurses, and in that term I include all involved in the nursing process, in the highest regard.
I have recently spent some time in hospital, and I left in awe and total respect of all the people involved in my care.
All the staff were totally committed towards the wellbeing of their charges.
I saw one staff nurse sat by a barely conscious very elderly man's bedside trying to feed him with such loving devotion which reinforced the term " Angels " in my thoughts.
What surprised me was the abuse and indeed violence that the nurses are open to on the wards.
F**** C** etc screamed at the top of his voice by a low life fellow patient, and another lashing out and uttering obscenities when his attempts on trying to exit the ward were blocked.
The nursing profession has long been undervalued and underpaid by successive governments, despite their mealy mouthed words to the contrary, and asking them to forgo a days holiday to facilitate a long overdue pay rise is unacceptable.
As has previously been stated, I am I full agreement that Jeremy Hunt is an utter **, a callous one at that, along with his fellow cohorts who are intent on dismantling the NHS.
I haven't read of any other section of the Public Sector workers being asked to forgo a days annual leave as part of their pay increment.

I think that’s because they haven’t been offered a pay increase yet

Great post btw holding

Thanks.

Seems your conjecture about a well known tactic in negotiations was spot on, maryeliza. Good spot ?

holdingonyomyteeth I think you will find, back in the times when Kenneth Baker was Secretary of State for Education, that teachers were asked to forgo three days annual leave. These were called initially Baker Days, and were for Inservice Training, which is why they are now called INSET days.

I’m not saying that this makes what Hunt wants to do right.

“Ministers drop demand that NHS staff give up day’s leave for pay rise”
Hot off the press- announcement due today.

No - a qualified health care assistant with proper training and regulation- there are a very clear range of tasks that can be identified as suitable for this role. At the moment, it varies enormously I believe.

That would be a huge step forward and should bring with it better pay and conditions for the Care Assistant. It would also help with the fact that social care and medical care cross over and back.

The request to loose a days leave has gone and a 6.5% pay offer has been made - which I believe would make up for lost pay under the years of the cap ... except it is going to be made over three years. Not good enough in my mind. Austerity did not hit those at the top of the tree but it is still hitting those NHS staff who bore the brunt of it all the way through this artificial pay setting.

The people I think deserve unconditional pay rises are care workers. Those unqualified, very low paid ( mostly young women) who trudge around the streets until all hours making sure our elderly are safe and well . They don’t get the wages or the admiration of a hospital nurse and not a fraction of the pay. Yet what would we do without them?

I agree.

I certainly think they should be at the top of the list gillybob - but I wouldn't stop there. For them it is not just the pay but the conditions too. Little or no training, few meetings to exchange best practice, understand clients and feel part of a team and, of course, the low pay.

I have seen them in action more times than I care to remember and honestly don’t know how they do it . Usually on or around Minimum wage, no travelling expenses , they often suffer abuse and sometimes have to work in the most disgusting filthy conditions too.

Does anyone know how much care workers are pid? I was looking at care agencies and noticed sometimes charge £17.50 an hour for care. I wondered how much went to the carers and how much to the agency.

7.50 an hour was my last wage as a care worker.

I think just (or around) minimum wage, trisher. Disgraceful when you consider what they have to do.

£17.50 is no where near enough to pay a care agency. They will have masses of costs to pay out of that.

I am not sure if this is any help but our local authority pays a maximum of £17.92 per hour, currently. There is only one company that is prepared to work at that rate. There used to be three but the other two have either gone out of business or refused to work for the council. It much less than the average of £24.77 we pay for an "hour" of care. The companies simply do not charge in a simple, by the hour amount although that is how council payments work. The travel/mileage amount is on each call, be it half an hour or a longer period. The charges at the weekend are more per period too. The charges for a half hour are more than half the cost of an hour. The council simply do not take any of this into account and their "hour" simply does not cover the cost so they are often in a position where you cannot find care at council payment level.

MissAdventure it would be useful to know when that was. In our area currently one (randomly chosen) company is offering £7.55 to £9.20 per hour - I assume travel is now being paid on top of this as an expense. The company also has quite considerable overheads to take into account.

If I do an off the top of my head calculation on those pay rates I would not be surprised to see the company charging around £25 an hour. If fact it is going up in April so it will be about that amount. By not taking into account the actual market cost the Council has, until recently, skewed the market. It seems that the government wants it all ways - that we have a market place in care and that people work for less than the market price for the state. That has to mean the collapse of the market at some point.

I don't know how any company could do it for £17.92 per hour GGM2 so not surprised to hear some have gone out of business.

When you consider how much has to come out of that.