Veganism

Antibiotics are widely used in farm animals leading to medics to call for preventative doses to be stopped. Even if one animal is sick the whole herd may be treated. Humans then eat these animals contributing to antibiotic resistance.

Btw I don't think that there's any such thing as humane slaughter. I read of someone in Australia passing a slaughter house with a herd of cows shaking in fear outside. They know. That person did not eat meat again.

There is little that is perfect in this terrible world, Dasymae.

By 'humame slaughter' I'd include keeping animals for slaughter ought of sight , sound,and smell of the dying ones.

There are ways to minimise the panic of animals for slaughter. www.grandin.com/

Daisymae

Of course we have not really touched on the fact that some people get pleasure from tormenting these animals as much as possible in their last moments.

They put the cows in the kill line and prod them to make them move forward. There are some heart rending pictures of cows crying, trying to comfort one another and being thrashed, poked and even having their tails cut with bolt cutters to make them move.

Daisymae, I struggle anyway with the concept of 'humane' killing and you make a good point. What kind of person works in a slaughterhouse? Not an animal lover, I'm sure.

My uncle's horse refused to go up (or down) the hill where the slaughterhouse was. It was set well back from the road. He must have heard something. Not every kill is instantaneous. People make mistakes.

Apparently, 'One skill that you master while working at an abattoir is disassociation' and 'Abattoir work has been linked to multiple mental health problems'. Whether pre-existing or work induced is unknown - but it hardly gives confidence in 'humane slaughter' does it?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-50986683

Well it's good to see a few others who are not taken in by the picture book image of farms and how your roast gets to its plate.

RSPCA not that interested Tillybelle reporting to the local authority is best. My local badger group are happy to keep an eye on farm animals welfare while unblocking badger setts. That happens a lot while those lovely country people gallop about killing foxes. And don't say its illegal, we all know that but they openly hunt foxes, and the criminal act goes unchallenged while anything gets in the way gets mangled too be it pet cats and dogs and humans though it's usually the 'hunt staff' who do the latter. I've seen it many times, it's sickening just the same as those cows who have a calf each year which is removed instantly. Ever lived near a dairy farm and heard the cows calling and calling for their calves? Cows endure short lives of constant pregnancy before they too are slaughtered. I think children should know what goes on, some adults prefer secrecy, not all.

And while we're on the subject of farm welfare and food standards, this is worth reading, written by the head of Global Justice Now. It makes clear what lies ahead if we accept US standards on our imported food, makes sad reading :

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/mar/02/chlorinated-chicken-foods-us-trade-deal-uk-eu?

Chickens grow to full size in 35 days. They are misshapen and so heavy their legs can't carry them. Don't see that on Country File

They've gone away Daisymae not interested in truth just their own little fantasies. LOL.

I know Annie none so blind as will not see. As long as they have cheap meat.

Can I ask the vegans amongst you whether you have concerns about the impact that the first world trend to a vegan diet is having on third world countries?

I know you would say that we have to look to long term solutions, but right now, in the short term, people are going hungry and even dying, because the west is using its wealth to buy in what has been staple diet items in poorer countries.

I do have a number of serious questions about the ethics of the vegan diet in the short term, which seem to me to be every bit as distressing and emotive as the ethics of killing animals. Is there anyone who’d feel able to discuss this with me?

What I think Eglantine is that there are too many people in the world and we are misusing resources and abusing other species of all kinds. Mother Nature is having another go at controlling our numbers. I fear for the world and I think all we can do is try to live lightly on the earth.

Oh I absolutely agree about too many people. I’ve posted about it before but lots of people disagree?

I’m paticularly bothered because my birth mother came from a country where people are experiencing extreme hardship because one of their staple diet items is now being shipped to the west. It makes more money here because of the vegan agenda.

I do have some hard questions for the vegan lobby Im afraid. Sone of them seem to be rather shrugging their shoulders at human suffering. It’s not Mother Nature causing the hunger in this case, it’s other people.

It’s not just vegans who eat imported food is it though? So to blame vegans for poverty in third world countries is rather misleading. We can grow a lot of the beans, pulses, nuts and seeds and oats etc here, no one, not even vegans, has to eat exotic ingredients. Yes overpopulation is one of the problems with climate change, pandemics, migration etc. Don’t blame vegans for companies importing foodstuffs which many non vegans buy for variety. Yes we should all buy locally produced foodstuffs, and if imported we should buy from nearby countries not the other side of the world. That is a whole separate issue from the ethics of animal cruelty.

Yes I agree Vegansrock . Not blaming vegans requires looking hard at the capitalist system, the enslavement to market forces. It is absurd how the supply of specially manufactured food for vegans has exploded. I am a Guardian reader but each weekend I am furious at the cookery section which always includes hard to get ingredients that I've never heard of. Just stupid but paying homage to those with money and the time to need endless titillation.

My ancestors came from Ireland and suffered years of famine and deprivation because of foreign interference, ie the English. We can all name such histories. The problem is rampant commercialism, the market system, inequality and over population. Don't blame vegans, we're doing the best we can. At least we're thinking and not hiding from the truth of the carelessness and wastefulness of so many.

No, of course it’s not just vegans who buy imported food, but it is the increase in the western world converting to a vegan diet that has driven the export of staple items from poorer countries. Items that are seen here as a main component of a vegan diet.

We can grow a lot here in time, but at the moment we don’t, and it’s the now of hunger that bothers me.

There’s a whole lot of difference between what we should be doing in terms of moving to a more plant based diet and what is actually happening. But just as there is a disconnect between meat and animal suffering in that people don’t worry about what they can’t see, so there is at present a disconnect between the diet changes we are making and it’s effect on people that we can’t see.

I don’t think animal cruelty is a seperate ethical issue. In both cases we are looking at suffering and shortening life in order to sustain other lives.

But we don’t need “staples” from third world countries do we? We can live without quinoa and avocados. In fact, we can grow our own quinoa. The staples in my cupboard are from the U.K., Ireland, the Netherlands, Italy and Spain, probably the same as non vegans.

We can, but we don’t. I’m talking about what’s actually happening to people.

I have to go out. Get back to you later if that’s ok? Willing to listen but with questions!

Eglantine21, I’m curious what staple you are talking about?

There's no simple answer, what about all the land that is used to grow animal feed, then fed to cows who in turn produce methane that has a huge environmental impact. I think that if animals were not raised in such appalling conditions then veganism would not have expanded to such a degree. The internet has hammered these points home and there's nothing that can justify it. I have been vegetarian for decades and it's only been in recent years that the true cost of dairy has been brought home to me. Nothing is perfect and there's an environmental impact to living but people are following their conscience.

I’m not arguing against a more plant based diet in the long term. Nor am I in favour of intensive farming methods that create unnatural conditions.

I do think though that vegans have a responsibility to people as well as animals in the way they implement a vegan diet. Some posters have been following a vegan diet for years and probably use more homegrown foods.But the surge in demand for “vegan” foods in the west has had serious consequences for poorer countries.

Vegans place a lot of emphasis on ethics and the morality of animal suffering. I think there is an ethical responsibility to at least make people aware that the rapid rise of veganism and the inclusion in western diets of what were staple foods, has caused hardship and malnutrition in other parts of the world.

Even where staple foods are still available the competing price against what the west can afford has meant that families go without medical care or education in order to buy food.

I think the vegan message should discouraging the consumption of other people’s staple food, not promoting it in recipes, in the way annie has pointed out.

I know there is no quick fix. I suppose I just wondered where the vegan conscience stood on this.

Most vegans are interested in where their food comes from. I think eglantine21 you are assuming that the increase in the variety of plant based foodstuffs available is all due to vegans. Maybe it’s aimed at consumers who want to switch some of their eating to a more plant based diet rather than cut out meat altogether. Or more like, it’s just an ever increasing way of companies to make money. I don’t think there is any evidence that the relatively small ( but growing) number of vegans and vegetarians are solely behind the impoverishment of third world farmers. If you would kindly tell us which foods you think we should avoid because of their affect in humans I would be grateful. I , for one, would not wish to have a staple that affected others in this way. I think your concern should also be directed at those who buy and dispose of cheap clothing and it’s affect on the environment.