another baby

I think the situation is being viewed from only one direction - the cost to the taxpayer.

Look at it another way. Who pays most into the 'pot' (not that there is one really, but just imagine)? Working age adults.

Where do they come from? Either they're grown UK-born children or immigrants. We really need them or the money runs out!

My (childless) boss complained, bitterly, about paying tax 'to educate other people's kids'.

I said 'Surely, you're just paying back for your own schooling?' He'd studied a degree with a full grant for three years!

I'd love to know where boodymum's money comes from. Does she reject all state help? Is she truly independent?

Or, is it like the Pink Floyd lyric 'Share it fairly but don't take a slice of my pie!'

I'd love to know where boodymum's money comes from. Does she reject all state help? Is she truly independent?

This is what I was getting at, Hetty, and I suspect that others were saying the same - I don't think any of us were saying that we see things in terms of cost/benefit, but were pointing out that on that basis most of us would be in deficit, so the OP should think twice before judging the woman with the baby.

Yes Doodledog - and where is the OP? Notable by her absence?

Hello Hetty, I`m still here. I have taken time to read and think about all the responses my post attracted.

Some people agreed with me and some didn't. People don't always agree.

As I said before, taking part in a forum like this, is bound to bring opinions of all kinds.

We`re lucky we can voice our thoughts here and many a time when reading posts/responses, I have felt the OPs were harshly treated.

However I do take on board what has been said, although I do worry that the world has so many problems, that having large families isn't wise.

During mine and my husband`s and now my 2 working daughters` lifetimes, we have and still are, paying our taxes, NI, council rates, dentists, TV licences, road tax, plus all the bills we all have to pay.

Due to my disability I have had to spend a lot of money adapting our home to fit my needs. I am not looking for any sympathy for this. Some of you wanted to know my circumstances. I do claim disability payments as I couldn't afford to pay all the bills otherwise.

So yes, I do cost the country a certain amount, but like I said before, we have and still do pay taxes on our earnings.

I`ll let this be my last word on the is thread and hope those who think I am heartless can learn to be a bit more tolerant..as I have now.

Cheers everyone.

boodymum67 Hope you don't leave without reading my post. I understand exactly what you are saying. No idea when it came into being that people's children were everyone else's problem, except the parents. Too many people feel they are 'owed' from society. " Look at me I have 4 children and counting and I can't afford to feed them?" Disgraceful attitudes and the do gooders will say, it is their right? Who's right? Why not have the family you CAN afford? No excuse in this day and age. Lots of people on the bandwagon about immigrants but in my experience the immigrants are hard working and take care of not only their children but their elderly parents also. It is their culture whereas ours seems to be - let the state take care of it!

I never give to any foodbanks (although to individuals I do) Reason being, too many greedy people who think they are entitled to freebies whether they need it or not. Been there/ Seen/heard it so don't bother disagreeing. Fact is IF you are on benefits with children, you WILL get enough to feed your children and have a roof over their heads but you will not have enough for cars/holidays/luxury items. No child will starve in this country unless parents use their money for other things.

So IF a parent is struggling then why have another? Then complain they are unable to care for their children? Not PC? Maybe not, but true.

well, I wish I hadn't started reading this thread, what a lot of judgemental, opinionated people there are on here, all with planned for families I assume?

And, frankly, the amount of young couples I see, with 3 or 4+ children, who don't work (many never have), and rely on benefits, well, I really don't believe it can all be blamed on accidental pregnancies. Lack of education, or stupidity, more likely. I can't be bothered to scroll back to see who wrote this piece of vitriol, but you need to give your head a wobble. Just how do you know, when you see a family out walking, that they are on benefits? Vile

Quite agree GillT57. So many judgmental posts on people's lives when they have no idea what's going on.

Me too Gill. Some deeply unpleasant and bitter individuals. People who, if we had the details of their personal circumstances, would prove to be far less than squeaky clean, themselves.

GillT57, et al, it was I who wrote what you refer to as 'this piece of vitriol'. I would, however, like to point out that I am in no way judgmental on other people's lives when I have no idea about them, or their backgrounds.

I do, however, speak from facts. Unfortunately, knowing of extended family members, their friends, and others living in what was our hometown, that there are indeed many people who make a life choice to live on benefits, have never had any intention of getting jobs, and see it as their right to have as many children as they like, even though they can't financially support them.

I'm all for people, who have fallen on difficult times, for whatever reason, to be able to have the financial support they need. And I know there are many people who see the good in everyone, but choosing to have a large family, when you know you can't provide for them financially, is downright irresponsible, whichever way you try to look at it.

I don't agree with ppl having more children than they can cope with, but circumstances do change and you don't always know that you can't cope until the child is here. We can't predict the future
But if, given all that is happening in the world atm, you still have head space to worry about what other people are doing then you are very lucky indeed.

These threads make me laugh. You always get someone who pops up to say that other people’s children will be paying our pensions and will be the doctors, teachers etc. of tomorrow. What people seem to forget is that a proportion of today’s children will also be tomorrow’s murderers, rapists and feckless layabouts. They really won’t all grow up to lead productive useful lives.

I honestly don't know where to even begin with that FoghornLeghorn.

Since we can't predict which will save the world and which will be psychopaths, why bother having any at all?

Certainly that would give the wildlife a chance to recover, Elegran!

A moratorium on births! Interesting - but how would you enforce it? China tried to restrict families to two children, with draconian punishments for transgressors - it didn't work.

If my career was on hold, having a baby if I was planning a family later doesn't seem so ridiculous. (And you get no govt help after your 2nd child?)

There is no shame in being poor ,its often beyond the control of the person/family ,there is much shame to be felt by those who treat the poor badly.All it takes is a run of bad luck and it could be you.Maybe think about that before you claim superiority over folk you dont know .
For the record I've had more than one pregnancy that wasn't planned...all contraception failures .Sadly for me...maybe not for you I lost them all before 11 weeks into the pregnancy.Truthfully' they may not have been planned but they would have been wanted and loved and I mourn them every day .I expect thats something you dont understand!

Paddyanne I totally agree with your post.

Sorry for your lost babies, having lost babies in the early stages of pregnancy I can sympathise.

I think it is wrong to try to dictate how many children people have but, if I was struggling, I must admit I would make a big effort to limit the size of my family.

Some people will have been in secure employment before the pandemic. They didn't know they would fall on hard times.

I wouldn't want the work of too many children either but we are all different. Some people thrive on it.

Chewbacca

I honestly don't know where to even begin with that FoghornLeghorn.

Why not? It’s the truth.

Why not? It’s the truth.

Only in a distorted, dystopian world.

Hetty58. The method of contraception I used has zero failure rate. It was sterilisation.

Tiny cut inside my naval under local anaesthetic home in half an hour a bit of shoulder pain the next day. Simple.

It was 40 years ago so should be even easier today.

I'm sure that was very effective, and a good solution if you knew that you didn't, and never would, want more children, or any at all.

For someone who isn't sure of that it's less than ideal, though.

And what about someone who is a few months into a much wanted pregnancy when she loses her job? Or loses her husband?

Or someone who wants children later, when she can 'afford' them, so doesn't get sterilised, but then finds she is pregnant sooner than she expected?

If people have sex, women will get pregnant. It was ever thus, regardless of advances in contraception. Unless you want to somehow ban sex (an impossibility, even for those who consider it a good thing to do), there will always be babies who come along at inconvenient times.

Making the lives of those babies more difficult, or shaming their mothers might make some people feel better in some way, but it won't cut their numbers, and it won't make them better members of society - if anything it will curtail their life chances and increase the likelihood that they will become the next generation of unemployed. Plus, it is cruel and unfair.

Chewbacca

^Why not? It’s the truth.^

Only in a distorted, dystopian world.

It’s an indisputable fact. Not all today’s children will grow up to be useful, productive members of society. Some will inevitably be criminals. How can you possibly deny this?

"Mr. Marley has been dead these seven years," Scrooge replied. "He died seven years ago, this very night."
"it is more than usually desirable that we should make some slight provision for the Poor and destitute, who suffer greatly at the present time. Many thousands are in want of common necessaries; hundreds of thousands are in want of common comforts, sir."

"Are there no prisons?" asked Scrooge.

"Plenty of prisons," said the gentleman, laying down the pen again.

"And the Union workhouses?" demanded Scrooge. "Are they still in operation?"

"They are. Still," returned the gentleman, "I wish I could say they were not."

"The Treadmill and the Poor Law are in full vigour, then?" said Scrooge.

"Both very busy, sir."

"Oh! I was afraid, from what you said at first, that something had occurred to stop them in their useful course," said Scrooge. "I'm very glad to hear it."

"Under the impression that they scarcely furnish Christian cheer of mind or body to the multitude," returned the gentleman, "a few of us are endeavouring to raise a fund to buy the Poor some meat and drink, and means of warmth. We choose this time, because it is a time, of all others, when Want is keenly felt, and Abundance rejoices. What shall I put you down for?"

"Nothing!" Scrooge replied.

"You wish to be anonymous?"

"I wish to be left alone," said Scrooge. "Since you ask me what I wish, gentlemen, that is my answer. I don't make merry myself at Christmas and I can't afford to make idle people merry. I help to support the establishments I have mentioned--they cost enough; and those who are badly off must go there."

"Many can't go there; and many would rather die."

"If they would rather die," said Scrooge, "they had better do it, and decrease the surplus population. Besides--excuse me--I don't know that."

"But you might know it," observed the gentleman.

"It's not my business," Scrooge returned.

God bless you everyone!