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Census 2021 and self ID

(59 Posts)
chattykathy Fri 12-Feb-21 11:15:47

I've looked on here to see if anyone has started a thread already but can't see one.
Have you seen the news that the ONS have reversed their decision to only ask for the the sex that is recorded on your birth certificate? They are saying people can use what it says on your passport or driving licence whre you can self identify. If this nonsense goes ahead then the data will be totally skewed and will affect women's services for years to come. All this is to pander to a tiny but very vocal trans community, never mind 51% of the population who are biologically female. I am fuming about this. Please write to your MP and ask them to oppose this move. There is more information on We really need to stand up to this otherwise we'll be ignored even more.

Ilovecheese Fri 12-Feb-21 11:31:21

Would probably have been a good idea to have both, the numbers of people who are identifying as the opposite sex could be recorded as a guide to society, at the same time the medical provision that is needed in future years would not then be skewed. For instance, the provision of cervical smears and the provision of prostate cancer checks needs accurate biological information .

Peasblossom Fri 12-Feb-21 11:34:11

If they are a tiny minority then it shouldn’t skew any women’s services statistically.

I think two boxes would be interesting. One for gender assigned at birth and another for chosen gender. Then it would be apparent how big the transgender community is in proportion to the changes being made to the whole of society.

I do think there are some really big issues here. Not least for the gay community whose identities are being seriously questioned.

trisher Fri 12-Feb-21 11:41:31

I don't think this is a matter of women being ignored. I do agree that the figures for the census will be skewed and that instead of just gathering data on sex the time has come for data on gender to be collected as well. Then we would have relaible and useful figures for indications of what health provision will be needed in the future. Perhaps the questions should be -Designated sex at birth m/f Gender in 2021 m/f/non-binary.

Blossoming Fri 12-Feb-21 11:51:06

I haven’t seen any mention of this in any news. I think Trisher’s suggestion of 2 questions, with 3 options for the second question, is a good one.

Eloethan Fri 12-Feb-21 12:29:21

If more men are identifying as women, wouldn't it improve services for women? However, perhaps the idea that there be two questions might work better.

trisher Fri 12-Feb-21 13:46:13

The idea that the census was until very recently any basis at all for academic research or building policies is questionable as well. Certainly past censuses (censii?) have numerous mistakes in them as anybody who has researched their family history will tell you. I suppse as the public became more literate things will have improved but as some of the discrepancies were only discovered fairly recently I'm not sure about that. If you are interested in the 1911 census when women actively campaigned against taking part The National Archives have loads of stuff

Ilovecheese Fri 12-Feb-21 15:52:20


If more men are identifying as women, wouldn't it improve services for women? However, perhaps the idea that there be two questions might work better.

I thought that at first but then I thought what about these young girls that want to be men, if they are in higher numbers then we need to know.

trisher I think this particular census may not be particularly useful, it has not been a normal year, it is the first time I believe that it has been outsourced so goodness knows how that might work out, if track and trace has ben anything to go by.
But better than nothing .

Chestnut Fri 12-Feb-21 16:14:55

I agree we should have clear indications of gender at birth and gender now to establish what changes have taken place in society. Anything less will not give a true picture.
However, the BBC are telling children aged 9-12 there are over 100 different genders so how will that work BBC Gender identity

chattykathy Sat 13-Feb-21 11:17:48

There are going to be two questions, one for sex and one for gender BUT the sex question will allow someone to say what's on other documentation rather than their birth certificate. It's a case of a tiny but vocal minority having an influence on something as important as the census.

Chestnut this has already been discredited and I think schools are being told to not show it. Schools have also received guidnace on using organisations such as Mermaids and Stonewall too.

geekesse Sat 13-Feb-21 11:34:29

OP, yes, YABU. Over and out.

trisher Sat 13-Feb-21 11:36:11

ilovecheese I wonder how the numbers of people in hospital at the time will influence the census, particularly if those people live alone. It doesn't seem that the Covid figures will be at all predictable.
I agree about the outsourcing I see they are still advertising for people.

FarNorth Sat 13-Feb-21 11:40:58

A tiny minority of people have Gender Recognition Certificates but there's no way of knowing how many have chosen to self-identify as the opposite sex.
There still will be no way of knowing that, from the Census.

Perhaps activists want to maintain an illusion of a 'tiny minority' while in fact increasing numbers of males are identifying, and being accepted, as girls and women.

Males being accepted as girls and women in female sports is just one example of how this will not help women.

FarNorth Sat 13-Feb-21 11:42:36

Perhaps the questions should be -Designated sex at birth m/f Gender in 2021 m/f/non-binary.

Of course they should be.
So strange that it isn't happening, tho.

trisher Sat 13-Feb-21 11:43:10

The BBC video has been withdrawn. The prejudice expressed on the link-including "a lesbian headmistress" shocked me. There are still people working in education who were afraid to disclose their homosexuality for years for fear of being ostracised. It's not that long since clause 28 was withdrawn. There are young adults now who suffered at school because of such prejudice. I'd hate to see anything like it returning.

Ilovecheese Sat 13-Feb-21 12:09:28

trisher Interesting question about the number of people in hospital.

Ilovecheese Sat 13-Feb-21 12:13:32

I've had a quick google to see how hospital inpatients are recorded but only found answers relating to the U.S.

FarNorth Sat 13-Feb-21 12:31:19

The commentary on that link is quite biased but I did see the video when it was available.
The kids mostly looked baffled and the adults were mostly talking rubbish, as you could see from that 'exciting' chat about numerous 'gender identities'.
What's wrong with expressing your personality without calling it a 'gender'?

It's ludicrous that schools are going along with this, while often still having different uniform rules, and rules about appearance, for girls and boys.

NellG Sat 13-Feb-21 12:43:23

If the trans community is so "tiny" then the fact that they can self ID in the census will make zero difference to the data as it pertains to women's services in years to come.

Or is there some fear here that all of a sudden a massive chunk of the population will self identify as trans and all the nice, privileged, cosy opinions of the NIMBYs will be challenged?

If this ravening horde of self identifiers put themselves down as female, they might swell the ranks of the 51%, overthrow the patriarchy and gold plate women's services for years to come. Now, there would be a thing...

Ilovecheese Sat 13-Feb-21 13:13:36

Do you not think though, NellG that an accurate picture of the numbers of people who would like to or who do live as a different sex than the one recorded on their birth certificate, would lead to a greater understanding of their needs?
If the state does not know, how can it provide services that reflect the need?

NellG Sat 13-Feb-21 13:29:40

Ilovecheese I do think that. My last paragraph was tongue in cheek.

It felt better than saying that the original post is abhorrent and transphobic.

If the census returns data that says 75% of the population self identify as porridge, then we'll know that infrastructure and services will change to accommodate the majority. Yet, funnily enough nothing would be taken from the minority.

For instance - the "tiny" yet "vocal" group of people who have campaigned for change have been heard and their needs included.

Perhaps all the people who claim to be feminists but do nothing other than do down other groups should take note, get organised and become more "vocal", then they might actually improve women's rights rather than whining that a "tiny" minority group might rob them of rights they already have. Rights that are protected and that will not deteriorate should trans people gain rights too.

The original post is nasty, insidious transphobic rhetoric that should be slapped down in no uncertain terms as is the organisation it links to.

Galaxy Sat 13-Feb-21 13:32:12

Is GN allowed to publish statements about other organisations like that.

JaneJudge Sat 13-Feb-21 13:36:33

Why couldn't they have just been given their own categories? I am really surprised they weren't. It is 2021, surely there should have been an option for trans female, trans male and non binary. What difference would it have made?

Galaxy Sat 13-Feb-21 13:40:12

Telling feminists to get organised is just very funny and shows a spectacular lack of understanding of the way women are organising to protect their rights.

trisher Sat 13-Feb-21 14:16:04

Galaxy I don't understand how women are organising to protect their. rights either. I've looked up "A Woman's Place"which I know is one of the organisations who are campaignng on this. I looked at the events it organised and few managed over 150 attendees a lot had less than 100. The one which had most was in fact organised by UCL so it wasn't their event. The last International Women's day event I attended in my city had more women than that attending (of course some of them may have been transwomen). So where are the feminists who think this really matters?