Census 2021 and self ID

They are mostly fighting through the legal system, and have completely altered the debate. A couple of years ago these discussions would just not have taken place in the public sphere, because 'no debate' women have fought to make this a mainstream debate and succeeded. Fairplay for women have also done an enormous amount of work on sex segregated places. It was feminists who stood with Keira Bell, who challenged the teaching that was occurring in schools with regard to gender/sex stereotypes. I think Julie Bindel, Kathleen Stock, Janice Turner have done some amazing work to name but a few.

Well if we think there are more than about 3.5 million trans people in the UK it might make a statistical difference but usually anything less than 5% is not going to impact significantly on decisions.

At the moment Stonewall suggests 1% /600,000 people.

People in public institutions (hospitals, workhouses, prisons, etc.) were included in censuses at the address they were residing on the date of the census.

NellG

If the trans community is so "tiny" then the fact that they can self ID in the census will make zero difference to the data as it pertains to women's services in years to come.

Or is there some fear here that all of a sudden a massive chunk of the population will self identify as trans and all the nice, privileged, cosy opinions of the NIMBYs will be challenged?

If this ravening horde of self identifiers put themselves down as female, they might swell the ranks of the 51%, overthrow the patriarchy and gold plate women's services for years to come. Now, there would be a thing...

I agree. In practice, I can't see it will make much difference.

Galaxy

Is GN allowed to publish statements about other organisations like that.

Feel free to report me.

No I dont report if I can help it, I prefer to let things stand and been seen.

Fair Play for Women is taking forward a Judicial Review to try to prevent the ONS from advising that the question on sex can be answered using self-identified sex.

They have a Crowdfunder, as they need to raise money quickly for this. The link gives a lot of information on the background and the reasons for challenging the ONS.

www.crowdfunder.co.uk/sexinthecensus2021

It's very much a non-issue though isn't it. It's based on two unlikely and scarcely credible assumptions. The first is that there are so many trans people the numbers could skew the figures, the second is that all those trans people would choose to state their chosen gender as their birth sex. Firstly the number is so small it will have little effect and secondly only a small number of trans people will not disclose their birth sex. But it's keeping the legal profession in the money!!

Had it been a real human rights issue there are a number of women human rights lawyers who would probably have acted for nothing.

Why on earth would you want a gathering of information to be inaccurate by design. There is also advice on a coordinated response on MN.

I agree with you trisher. As far as I know, there are two parts to the question: firstly, asking about gender at birth and, secondly, asking about any change. To be honest, people could lie if they wanted to, but why would they? Some people fill in stupid things on the census anyway.

There really are more important issues to get in a sweat about.

That's ok we can worry about a whole range of issues all at once.

I’m very, very pleased about the decision and would wholeheartedly oppose as pseudo-feminist backlash.

Galaxyit will be no more inaccurate than a number of other questions on the census that rely on people answering truthfully and sensibly. One example being the question on religion which caused all sorts of upsets and amusement when people were urged to enter "Jedi" . A lot of people know very little about the census, the inaccuracies and mistakes which have always happened. It's really a non-issue.

It wont be inaccurate, it will gather a realistic picture of how people are living in the UK in 2021.

Its funny though trisher you ask whether women are organising and then complain when they do.

Are you having a bad day Galaxy?

No Nell G are you?

I suppose it depends if you think a few upper class women expressing their prejudices and ignorance by taking unnecessary and costly legal action is women organising. I prefer a grassroots organisation of ordinary women acting to protect and change the real issues which are affecting their lives. Women like the ones who resurrected the Reclaim the Streets march, campaigned about Period poverty and formed Preganant Then Screwed. Why not begin funding those women who cannot afford and do not have the time or energy to challenge their dismissal because they are heavily pregnant when it happens? Much more important then a tiny minority of a tiny minority.

Upper class women, right wing women, etc etc. We have heard all these stereotypes before. These women have been involved in issues relating to male violence for example for years. It reminds me of when someone asked what Julie Bindel had ever done before for women in prison.

No, I'm fine, it's just that you're name dropping again and it always seems to point to you getting a bit fighty. Just wanted to check and see if we could maybe have a conversation without the 'also rans'.

"Upper class" women? Lots of women who have disagreed with being called " cis women" etcetera come from all classes, I'm not trans phobic, but I sometimes feel that I'm being overlooked, no doubt I will get shouted at.

OK I've looked at the Women's Place thing and listened to them. What disturbs me most about them is their misrepresentation of the facts. They talk about changing rooms being open to transwomen without acknowledging that this has been happenng for a long time and is actually a legal requirement of transition. They talk about self ID as if it will be a completely unregulated process when what most tranpeople want is a legal process that removes the medical intervention.So whatever class or political stance they have they undermine their own arguments for me.

Trisher, I do appreciate that you look at fairplay for women etc, I dont think you were ever going to agree with their stance and I dont think there is much mileage in us going over the changing room debate again but as I say I appreciate you looking. I regularly read jolyon maughan and Owen Jones who hold very different views to me on this. I do try and hear what they are saying.