Binders. The world has gone mad.

trisher

Pammie1

* On this thread apparently every positive post about binders promotes transition.*

No, not at all. As previous posters have said, there are various contributing factors for their use. However it’s a cause for concern that young girls who are gender uncertain or have other body issues, are being encouraged by Lush to go behind their parents’ backs in order to obtain them, and may therefore miss out on any appropriate help or counselling. But then you know that.

And if you want you can buy them on line without any help measuring or fitting from anyone- which is so much better isn't it?????

No, it’s not, but neither is asking a teenage shop assistant to act as a counsellor for gender dysphoria.

Pammie1

trisher

Pammie1

* On this thread apparently every positive post about binders promotes transition.*

No, not at all. As previous posters have said, there are various contributing factors for their use. However it’s a cause for concern that young girls who are gender uncertain or have other body issues, are being encouraged by Lush to go behind their parents’ backs in order to obtain them, and may therefore miss out on any appropriate help or counselling. But then you know that.

And if you want you can buy them on line without any help measuring or fitting from anyone- which is so much better isn't it?????

No, it’s not, but neither is asking a teenage shop assistant to act as a counsellor for gender dysphoria.

But she can make sure the right size is bought, advise on wearing and caring for it reassure the purchaser that this isn't something "weird" and tell her to talk to her parents.
It isn't counselling for gender dysphoria I think the assistant would offer it's a sympathetic ear and advice on binding.

Despite the fact that those involved in performing gender reassignment are beginning to raise the alarm, despite the fact that that there has been no research on the issues relating to f to m transition despite many raising red flags, despite that fact that some countries have backed off completely from the affirmation model. Let's just crack on shall we.

Galaxy

Despite the fact that those involved in performing gender reassignment are beginning to raise the alarm, despite the fact that that there has been no research on the issues relating to f to m transition despite many raising red flags, despite that fact that some countries have backed off completely from the affirmation model. Let's just crack on shall we.

I would hope that all of those things would happen although the emotive language used might be questionable. I can't see how that would help any young woman looking for help now. I don't think there is much choice about "cracking on" the alternative being I suppose to ignore them and leave them to find their own way of binding, even though that might be harmful.

It might be better for that young girl to be offered alternatives rather than binders or that seems to be what some of the more progressive countries are saying.

Oh and most of those things arent happening or are happening very slowly because the peopke who raised those concerns were told they were bigots.

trisher I know that beauty pageants are popular in America, I’ve seen documentaries about them. But watching the videos of Desmond drag kid did not make me think of him in that vein.
Re. Lush, have you ever been in one of their stores? It’s not a shop I frequent, the smell alone makes me nauseous, but I’ve heard plenty people describe it for the constant hard sell approach of the assistants. Do you really think they’re going to be punctilious in their fitting the binders? How much training have they had, if any?
And no, I don’t think many teenagers tell their parents everything they do, I didn’t and I know my daughter didn’t. But I can’t remember ever being encouraged by shop assistants to keep secrets from myMum.

Pammie1

@Doodledog. Just had a quick google, and not sure if it’s the same case, but a US teacher was sacked for showing pictures of their partner in the classroom and announcing their marriage on Facebook. They were sacked for ‘promoting’ homosexuality.

Oh, I can see that it could be perceived that way, and I'm aware of similar things that happened in the UK.

It's nonsense, though - telling kids that something exists isn't going to make them want to do it. They have their own sexualities, which are not going to be influenced by knowing about a teacher's private life.

The point as far as this thread goes, though, is that trans issues are not the same as gay issues, and the constant 'this is akin to homophobia/I remember when gay people said . . .' refrains are very wide of the mark.

Doodledog

What is coming through loud and clear, trisher is that far from simply being supportive of people wanting to live quietly as a member of the opposite sex (as you have claimed on other threads), you are actively pushing the transgender cause, to the point where you would not only be complicit in the eradication of sex-based rights for women, but would encourage children to go behind the backs of their parents in order to get body-modifying garments with no counselling or professional support.

I realise that you have chosen to ignore the 'BBC pulling out of Stonewall' thread, but it would be interesting to know what you make of the last line of their statement in response to this news: 'Our work continues until the world we imagine is the world we live in.'

My question to you is 'What is the world you imagine would be an ideal one in this regard, and do you have a line in the sand when it comes to fighting to achieve it?'

trisher, I wonder if you missed this, or if you are just choosing to ignore anything to do with the current sea change in the fortunes of Stonewall?

kircubbin2000

IMHO NO, YOU ARE NOT BEING UNREASONABLE!!!

Doodledog

Doodledog

What is coming through loud and clear, trisher is that far from simply being supportive of people wanting to live quietly as a member of the opposite sex (as you have claimed on other threads), you are actively pushing the transgender cause, to the point where you would not only be complicit in the eradication of sex-based rights for women, but would encourage children to go behind the backs of their parents in order to get body-modifying garments with no counselling or professional support.

I realise that you have chosen to ignore the 'BBC pulling out of Stonewall' thread, but it would be interesting to know what you make of the last line of their statement in response to this news: 'Our work continues until the world we imagine is the world we live in.'

My question to you is 'What is the world you imagine would be an ideal one in this regard, and do you have a line in the sand when it comes to fighting to achieve it?'

trisher, I wonder if you missed this, or if you are just choosing to ignore anything to do with the current sea change in the fortunes of Stonewall?

Firstly Doodledog I have no intention of answering any question you might choose to ask of me, simply because you demand it,
As for the BBC which is trying to ingratiate itself with the current government in the hope that it might survive I'm not surprised by anything it does. Just regretful that what was once seen as flagship broadcaster is becoming a more restrictive organisation even though its present position on women and ethnic minorities isn't great. Ofcom recommended
Over the last year, there has not been a significant improvement in the representation of people from a minority ethnic background at the BBC, particularly at senior levels. Given the BBC’s 2020 targets in this area, it is discouraging to note the rise in the proportion of minority ethnic employees leaving the BBC in the last year (from 16% in 2017 to 20% in 2018). We would expect to see accelerated progress on the retention of these employees if the BBC is to reflect the true diversity of its audiences, right across the UK.
Similarly, there has not been any noticeable improvement in the representation of women at both senior levels and across the organisation. Given the BBC’s 2020 target for 50:50 representation for women at senior levels, we expect to see further progress on the current figure for women in senior management, which is 43%.
The BBC should consider whether the actions recommended in its report regarding the recruitment and working practices of women, as well as its initiatives such as the Hilda Matheson Women into Leadership programme are sufficient to ensure that more women will progress into senior management roles in the coming year.
We will be discussing with the BBC how it can further improve the overall representation and career progression for women and minority ethnic groups within its workforce.
So actually I would see any step which possibly limited diversity as a negative one. I haven't looked at the reasons given for abandoning Stonewall but I seriously doubt there is anything altruistic in the move.

Trans men have bound their chests for hundreds of years. This product isn't the first one marketed. They've just been very niche before.

There are also products for transwomen to wear to 'tuck' their genitalia. I've seen those advertised. One of the companies, run by the father of a trans girl, aims his at teenage trans girls.

These things sell because there is, and has always been, a market.

Before there were specific products trans boys bound with bandages/fabric and trans girls would at times tie yarn around the head of the penis and pull it between the legs, attaching the yarn at the back (through their buttocks) to a belt.

You may disapprove of these behaviours, but they have always happened. It's just that it is more publicly known now.

Firstly Doodledog I have no intention of answering any question you might choose to ask of me, simply because you demand it

This stood out for me, trisher.

The interrogation and INSISTENCE on an answer. So rude.

No demands here. It's just that a number of people have commented on the lack of engagement from you and others on the BBC/Stonewall thread, and I wondered what your thoughts were.

So basically you have no thoughts at all? Some diversionary stuff about lack of ethnic diversity at senior employee level, but nothing at all about the influence of Stonewall on the BBC style guide (that influences things like whether presenters can refer to 'pregnant women' or have to call them 'pregnant people'), nothing about the Women's Hour interview? Nothing about the Nolan Investigates podcasts?

Are you seriously saying that none of the above has blipped on your radar? If any of those issues is of interest to you, as such an avid supporter of Stonewall and trans rights, you can find links and further info on the thread, if you haven't seen it yet.

The interrogation and INSISTENCE on an answer. So rude.

Someone who SHOUTS all the time, and has made it clear that they only bother with the last six posts on any thread, and that they see those who disagree with them as 'beneath them' is in no position to call others rude?.

Thinking about binders had I been offered one in my early teens I might well have worn it. Not because I'm trans but because I have big boobs and in school uniform they. were an embarrassment for me. School blouses with buttons and a tie weren't the best item of clothing for me. A binder might have made my schooldays happier. Instead I probably stooped and slouched and tried to hide.

Wow! GJ. What an interesting time you must have had googling all that. Thanks for saving me having not to bother.

Doodledog

No demands here. It's just that a number of people have commented on the lack of engagement from you and others on the BBC/Stonewall thread, and I wondered what your thoughts were.

So basically you have no thoughts at all? Some diversionary stuff about lack of ethnic diversity at senior employee level, but nothing at all about the influence of Stonewall on the BBC style guide (that influences things like whether presenters can refer to 'pregnant women' or have to call them 'pregnant people'), nothing about the Women's Hour interview? Nothing about the Nolan Investigates podcasts?

Are you seriously saying that none of the above has blipped on your radar? If any of those issues is of interest to you, as such an avid supporter of Stonewall and trans rights, you can find links and further info on the thread, if you haven't seen it yet.

So now not only demanding I answer you but demanding which threads I post on! And this from someone who claims to be feminist.
Well guess what? I don't have to post on anything and unlike others who post with preconceptions and prejudices if I am posting on something I tend to do my research first. Which is why I was able to find out that anyone can buy binders on line. Which means they are available to anyone without any one else knowing and Lush are just providing the same service in store. Which actually reduces the shock value of this thread.

When you want to know more.
thecritic.co.uk/arrest-the-chest/

Mollygo

Wow! GJ. What an interesting time you must have had googling all that. Thanks for saving me having not to bother.

I Googled nothing. I've had friends that have had to improvise at times.

Why so rude?

trisher But she can make sure the right size is bought, advise on wearing and caring for it reassure the purchaser that this isn't something "weird" and tell her to talk to her parents.

From what I can see Lush will not be fitting these garments, advising on correct usage etc because they will simply be facilitating purchase, they don't have fitting rooms or trained staff. The binder is ordered online then collected from the Paddington branch of Lush.

I really don't know why threads with trans issues in them have to resort to rudeness. It happens repeatedly in these threads but not in others. Why?

trisher

Pammie1

* On this thread apparently every positive post about binders promotes transition.*

No, not at all. As previous posters have said, there are various contributing factors for their use. However it’s a cause for concern that young girls who are gender uncertain or have other body issues, are being encouraged by Lush to go behind their parents’ backs in order to obtain them, and may therefore miss out on any appropriate help or counselling. But then you know that.

And if you want you can buy them on line without any help measuring or fitting from anyone- which is so much better isn't it?????

Which is exactly what Lush are facilitating!

Report it if you think it’s rude.
I decided to research the stuff you mentioned as I don’t have a convenient group of friends with any conditions mentioned on GN and it’s all out there so you could have done the same.

I apologise I thought from all the things posted on this thread that the assistants in Lush were in some way involved in selling these things. It just goes to show how many inaccuracies are posted on these matters and how foolish it is to believe a word of what is said in condemnation. It seems Lush is just providing a collection service. It's probably possible to order the same items and Click and Collect them somewhere, is everyone just as incensed about this service?