University degrees

Who suggested tertiary education was a bad thing? No one on this thread that I have noticed. In fact the discussion has been mainly about deploring the way the obsession with degrees has closed down so many alternative ways into the professions that opened them up to people of all kinds of background and formal education - or the lack of it.

The obsession with degrees and the downgrading of other kinds of qualifications has led to many subjects which gave an excellent technical training for all kinds of work,and that were respected by employers but were described as Diplomas or Certificates being upgraded to degrees and the content changed to the disadvantage of students in order to give it the 'academic' weight it needed to be called a degree. This could often disadvantage students, who excelled in practical work but not written.

My DD did a degree in acting. It was a diploma course upgraded to a degree so that students could, then, get their fees paid and a grant. The course she did was not a degree level course. After 2 1/2 years of entirely practical training in acting they were all expcted to write a dissertation in their last year, having done no written work at all until that point, in order to justify the degree. Many students, after nearly 3 years without any academic study, struggled to even define a topic, let alone write and research it and write a dissertation of about 5,000 words.

I have just looked at that particular college's prospectus and nothing has changed in the 25 years since DD graduated.

Looking at Chewbacca's list, these are just the kind of subjects that used to award diplomas and certificates that were as respected as any of these degrees are.

The main reason these subjects became degrees is the one why courses like my DD acting course became a degree. At the time it happened the government only paid fees and maintenance grants for degree courses and if all these excellent courses were to be able to recruit students, students studying skills urgently required by industry in many cases was if the students could study on the same financial terms as university students - and that meant changing the courses to make them into degrees.

Doodledog

It is also a great experience for those who want to do it. Living away from home really makes people grow up. I could definitely see a real difference in maturity between students who left home and those who lived with their parents and commuted into university.
Students undertaking sandwich courses at the College of Technology I knew in the 1960s were from all over the country and overseas.
It is part of a University now, of course.

My young relative who was taken on by a firm and did his degree and further qualifications with the firm was paid enough to be able to rent a house share with others.

Firms need to look to the future and play their part in the education of the future workforce.

The process of getting a course validated as a degree is arduous and not just a case of changing the name on the course booklet.

It is overseen by HCFHE (in England) and the equivalents in the other home countries, and the purpose is to ensure that quality is consistent across the sector. Ever module is examined and mapped against learning outcomes and other matrices to make sure that they are at the right level and that progression is built into the degree. Where appropriate, professional bodies are consulted and they also have input into the validation process. It takes a long time and involves numerous staff (teaching and research staff, QA departments, university management and so on).

Unless you were part of that process when your daughter's course was upgraded to a degree, I don't see how you can possibly know what was involved behind the scenes, but it won't have been a case of adding on a dissertation to make it a degree, whatever your daughter may have thought at the time.

Callistemon

I don't disagree, but as it's not happening, students (or young people) don't have that option. I don't see how companies can be compelled to pay staff to undertake 'on the job' training, although it would be good news if they decided to do so.

I'm glad you posted that Doodledog because I was just checking a couple of details about the process. Planning for the change from a diploma to a degree would have taken years.

JaneJudge

I don't understand T levels, what will happen?

I would love to do an hand embroidery degree, I'm pretty sure it is quite rare though? and what s the alternative? Indian children sitting over UV lighting embroidering for our fashion and homes?

Your best bet might be the Royal School of Needlework. Some of the work I have seen done by someone studying there was stunning. I was green with envy If you look at that you might then be able to find something closer to you but along those lines.

royal-needlework.org.uk/degree/course-overview/

Doodledog

Callistemon

I don't disagree, but as it's not happening, students (or young people) don't have that option. I don't see how companies can be compelled to pay staff to undertake 'on the job' training, although it would be good news if they decided to do so.

It would, but I think that profit margins are probably much tighter these days, Doodledog as there is so much competition from other countries in some industries.

The process of getting a course validated as a degree is arduous and not just a case of changing the name on the course booklet.
Yes, I remember working on that process many years ago when CNAA degrees were awarded.
The CNAA was dissolved in the 1990s I think.

It will have been dissolved in 1992, when Polytechnics became universities and awarded their own degrees.

The process was probably pretty much the same, though.

PippaZ

JaneJudge

I don't understand T levels, what will happen?

I would love to do an hand embroidery degree, I'm pretty sure it is quite rare though? and what s the alternative? Indian children sitting over UV lighting embroidering for our fashion and homes?

Your best bet might be the Royal School of Needlework. Some of the work I have seen done by someone studying there was stunning. I was green with envy If you look at that you might then be able to find something closer to you but along those lines.

royal-needlework.org.uk/degree/course-overview/

If I do another course my husband will divorce me

When you're very old like me, JaneJudge, there is always the U3A ?
You won't gain any more qualifications, though.

My son did not want to go to university and whilst he was in the sixth form he found various jobs to earn some cash, which led to full time employment. He worked his way up, and, to cut a long story short, his employer paid for him to do an degree as a sandwich course, no small effort with a young family by then. He went from strength to strength in his chosen career and is now a high earner at the top of his field. His sister likewise went into employment at 18, but at 23 she was ready for university. It seems to me that many young people don’t really find their way for some years.
I agree we should encourage people to become electricians and plumbers, if they are interested. We need them, and it is better than wasting their time trying to do something they are not cut out for.
My granddaughter, who is very bright, has no idea what she wants to do after A levels. She is studying Maths, Physics, Chemistry and French.

I agree we should encourage people to become electricians and plumbers, if they are interested. We need them, and it is better than wasting their time trying to do something they are not cut out for.
Of course we should, and nobody should do things they aren't cut out for. My concern is that usually (and I'm not saying that you are doing this) when people make remarks like that they are referring to other people's children. The general feeling seems to be that university is not for everyone, so only the speaker's children and their friends should go. Other people's kids can go into trades. That way, of course, the scarcity value of degrees is restored, as is the status that they used to convey.

IMO, a lot of the resistance to widening participation is the fact that degrees are no longer a passport to a lifetime of higher status and good salaries, as the reduction in their scarcity value (not their inherent value) no longer creates an elite like it used to. I don't see that as a bad thing, as I think that competition is a good thing, and that as many people as possible should get a chance to compete.

Ilovecheese I don’t begrudge anyone having a university education.
It has certainly set my own children up for life (even though at certain points in their school days they were seen as the most unlikely candidates for academia)
They certainly have no regrets and the experience and confidence that “going away” has given them, as well as the diverse circle of people they met along the way have led to firm friendships and a strong network of likeminded individuals.

University has also broadened their scope of what is possible and what’s more; it has extended those opportunities to their own childrens’ futures.

However….it has now become a cash cow in the same way as homeownership has. The establishment has exploited a worthy aspiration and turned it into a huge, onerous burden for graduates to bear at young age.
Basically for many the rewards aren’t big enough now to justify the costs.
And for those without a degree it has been a race to the bottom where pay is concerned because employers have been subsidised by government so long that they have completely missed the point of The Minimum Wage that being “they” could pay more.

Chewbacca

^some people are good at academic study, others learn best through making and doing^

Spot on M0nica, there should be more apprenticeships available in plumbing, electricians, gas engineers etc instead of funnelling all students into university degree courses that not all of them are suited for and not all of the courses very much use:
Surf Science and Technology
Viticulture and Oenology (wine)
Floral Design
Cities
Horology
Psychology of Fashion
Hand Embroidery
Puppetry Design and Performance
Stand Up Comedy
Golf Management
Bagpiping
Ethical Hacking???
Circus and Physical Performance

Yes a lot of degree courses nowadays sound like the kind of stuff people used to do night classes in as a hobby years ago.

I'm not objecting to young people going to University to study something they are really interested in. I'm objecting to degrees now being viewed as a 'must have' so that even those who would find on the job training more enjoyable or useful feel forced into going on to further study. As a result a lot of degree courses have been created to meet demand. Many are neither particularly academic or of practical use out in the world of work, and are just a waste of time and money.

Another way of looking at that is that the educational standard of the country as a whole has risen. Those 'at the bottom' have always had a rough time, and I agree that this needs to be addressed; but why make it 'the norm' for people to leave school at 15 with few or no qualifications? Surely it is better all round if more people are able to make the most of their lives? It's not all about money - there are other advantages to having a decent education.

Quite agree that every child should be able attain the best possible level of education and qualifications as possible. But "trades" such as plumbers, electricians, heating engineers are every bit as valuable as academia and apprenticeships for these should be more easily available and most certainly not looked down on as "less than".

But you can have a decent education without going to University. Years ago lots of people completed a secondary level education, then went into the world of work and found their niche and did very well.

There were also lots of people who had no interest in going to University after school but, after several years working, became interested in a certain field of work and then decided to go to University either full-time or part-time to pursue a career in that field.

But making further study at 18 the norm creates an environment where those who don't wish to or are unable to go on to college straight from school are at an enormous disadvantage even though they are bright, hard working and have excellent practical or creative skills.

Meant to add that training courses taken throughout your working life are also educational.
Going to University isn't the only way to be well educated.

JaneJudge

PippaZ

JaneJudge

I don't understand T levels, what will happen?

I would love to do an hand embroidery degree, I'm pretty sure it is quite rare though? and what s the alternative? Indian children sitting over UV lighting embroidering for our fashion and homes?

Your best bet might be the Royal School of Needlework. Some of the work I have seen done by someone studying there was stunning. I was green with envy If you look at that you might then be able to find something closer to you but along those lines.

royal-needlework.org.uk/degree/course-overview/

If I do another course my husband will divorce me

Chewbacca

Quite agree that every child should be able attain the best possible level of education and qualifications as possible. But "trades" such as plumbers, electricians, heating engineers are every bit as valuable as academia and apprenticeships for these should be more easily available and most certainly not looked down on as "less than".

The big problem is finding enough companies prepared or able to take on an apprentice. The system isn't working.

This is an article from earlier this year. www.cipd.co.uk/about/media/press/010321apprenticeship-levy-reform-budget#gref

Completely agree with you PippaZ, my DS was very fortunate to have been accepted onto one of the last aeronautical engineering apprenticeships and that was 20 years ago. So many skills in trades are being lost and not replaced.

Granmarderby10, would you really want a return to the 1960s, when only 7% of students went on to HE? We'd be out of step with the international market. Of course, a degree isn't so exclusive or prestigious as back then.

There are many careers open to applicants with any degree subject, M0nica. For instance, law, teaching, marketing, HR, civil service, accountancy, advertising, intelligence and journalism. Just having a degree opens doors as it demonstrates a certain level of competence.

On the other hand, if you aim to run your own business or work in retail management, for instance, those three years are probably better spent gaining direct experience.

Still, the skills aspect isn't everything. There's growing up too. Living independently, on a budget, researching, completing work to deadlines, team assignments, socialising - all are valuable steps to work (having been spoon fed and mollycoddled through school).

“There are many careers open to applicants with any degree subject, M0nica. For instance, law, teaching, marketing, HR, civil service, accountancy, advertising, intelligence and journalism. Just having a degree opens doors as it demonstrates a certain level of competence.”

For my first job in 1978, I worked for North West Gas as a Graduate Trainee and I spent some time in several admin type departments before becoming settling in Personnel as it was called then. It was not degree specific but I had to undertake professional qualifications in order to get promoted.

However, in my late 30’s and three children later, I was able to change careers and train as a teacher. Then my degree did matter as teachers could only get on a PGCE course if it was in a subject taught in schools, this was for teachers of all age groups including Primary. My degree was in Geography and Sociology and I only got my post because Geography was considered the main subject because it came first on the certificate.

My daughter got a first in Geography at Manchester University but was unable to get a job in marketing because she did not have a business degree. She started like me, on a graduate training scheme with United Utilities and after a year in various areas, was able to get a job in marketing based on her experience there.

The generic graduate jobs can be a good starting point but when my daughter was in her third year in 2008, there were far fewer such jobs than when I graduated, the job market had become more specialist as the range of degree subjects had expanded.

I am in agreement with Teacheranne. There are careers that just look at the level of education: Civil Service, Diplomatic Service, but the majority of graduate jobs require a job specific degree. It does not need to be BA/BSc, it can be gained by a post graduate course. There are a lot of one year professionally based masters degrees, but that involves extra cost.

It is not valid to compare now with the 1960s because many people went into all kinds of professions and jobs in the 1960s without formal qualifications that now require degrees. That does not mean that they were untrained and unskilled, simply that the way that they gained those professional skills and training were informal and within the job.

As I have mentioned before, I had friends, who left school in the 1960s with only O levels and then went on to train as solicitors and chartered accountants. Both professions now fully degreed. That they started at O level did not mean they were less knowledgeable or less able or well trained in their profession. In fact both had highly successful careers. The solicitor ended up a judge and her pension is more than I ever earned!

As for the experience of growing up and socialising by going away to university. Is that in itself a good reason for burdening yourself with 10s of thousands of pounds of debt? That sort of argument is elitist as only the children of the wealthy, whose families can finance their studies can be quite so nonchalent about price of their social life and accommodation of their university education.