Women's prisons.

Absolutely!

Poor Tunbridge Wells?. I am sure there must be some residents with normal blood pressure and low rates of apoplexy.

They should just have trans wings, women’s prisons are single sex for a reason.

and !

vegansrock

They should just have trans wings, women’s prisons are single sex for a reason.

I agree, but there would still be the problem of housing 'genuine'* transpeople with the predatory rapists and violent blokes dressed as women for the duration of the sentence.

*someone suggest a better word, please?

What about bonafide transwomen ?

Transwomen who have been convicted of rape or sexual assault should be put in men's prisons in a separate wing. Other men do have a better chance of defending themselves. Putting them in prison with women is like letting the fox into the henhouse.

Absolutely AGAA4. It’s asking for trouble putting them with women, and I can think of no reason at all why women should be put at risk to appease the demands of a vocal minority.

Bona fide means the same thing though (although it has a more pleasing sound?).

Actually, what am I talking about? Never mind if someone is genuine, bona fide or not! If they are a sex offender with a male body they should not be amongst women. No Debate.

That's the point, Doodledog - the crime for which the person is sentenced is more relevant than the gender which they claim to belong to. If a person born male has committed a sexual offence he should be in a male prison. If he has been sentenced for a non-violent crime and claims to be a woman, it could be possible to discuss where he should be housed. However, I would think that anyone who has not started a proper period of transition by living as a woman and starting hormone treatment should not be regarded as a high priority for a place in a woman's prison.

Your post from yesterday at 18:23:41 is noted, and I will put in my tuppence-worth in future!

We dont house people by what crime they commit we house them by sex.

There was a thread on this subject on GN a couple of weeks ago. I agree that it’s difficult but in my view it’s just another invasion of womens’ safe spaces and yet again it’s something being forced on natural women, with little or no attention paid to the reasons for objections. I haven’t read the full thread to see if it’s come up here, but there are also plans to add time on to the sentence of any inmate deliberately ‘misgendering’ them. I think it’s only going to be a matter of time before someone gets hurt.

NanKate

What about bonafide transwomen ?

What about bonafide trans women. They are not and never will be female born and don’t belong in a womens’ prison. I am not anti trans by any means, but as a natal woman I’m getting fed up with hard won womens’ rights being trampled underfoot in the name of equality for a vocal minority who have no regard for the rights of others.

The High Court ruled that men who identified as women, can be housed in women’s prisons, as they have their rights, so I guess they have no choice.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57692993

I don’t agree to be honest. One group’s rights shouldn’t be allowed to trample over another group’s rights.

Difficult though.

You get me wrong Pammie. Doodledog asked for an alternative name for genuine trans people and I came up with bona fide.

I think she was differentiating trans people who lead their lives peacefully in their new persona, from those such as trans women who are predatory sex offenders.

I understand that some people want to change sex and that is up to them, but I still believe you can’t fundamentally change your sex even after surgery.

I’ve noticed that when Doodledog has asked the pro trans people for a definition of a woman she doesn’t get a response.

Did you hear the head of Stonewall on Woman’s Hour this week? She just couldn’t give a straight answer. I believe Stonewall used to be a great support to gay and lesbian people, but it has changed drastically recently since the trans people have taken over.

Galaxy

We dont house people by what crime they commit we house them by sex.

And their sex, as shown by their Y chromosomes and, if they have been convicted of raping women, by their continuing sexual predilections and their actions, is still male. Their gender of choice may be female, but that has not changed their underlying sex.

Thank you, Elegran, as usual you explain it very clearly, as I obviously failed to do.

You get me wrong Pammie. Doodledog asked for an alternative name for genuine trans people and I came up with bona fide. I think she was differentiating trans people who lead their lives peacefully in their new persona, from those such as trans women who are predatory sex offenders.

Yes, sorry - I muddied the waters there. I can see that what I called genuine transwomen would be at risk from predators in a male prison (think Hayley from Coronation Street), and I don't think it would be fair to house them in there. I was trying, clumsily, to separate them from predators who pretend to be TW in order to prey on female prisoners, but got in a muddle as we can't easily tell who is pretending and who isn't. This isn't a straightforward situation, and despite accusations to the contrary, I am not transphobic and want to be fair to everyone.

Nevertheless, the bottom line is that no male-bodied sex offenders should be anywhere near vulnerable women, never mind in a locked cell with them. In the end, the rights of women need to come first in this situation, as it is TW who are 'invading' a single-sex space. I also think that violent sex offenders shouldn't expect to have their rights put above those of anyone, really.

Also, it's great to see more contributors on this thread?.

I would hate to see anyone unhappy if they feel they are a woman in a man's body and wish to change.
I would have thought those genuine trans women would want to be with us in every way but there is a small minority who want to join a well established group and change the rules to suit themselves.

I think the muddle is happening because we pretended that you can change sex. You cant. No man should be in a womans prison whatever their crime. Lots of men are at risk in mens prisons, gay men, men of different religions, men who arent physically strong. We cant put men in womens prisons because men are at risk from other men.

I would make an exception for medically transitioned TW who have been living as women for some time. I think there is a huge difference between them and someone who just says they are a woman and must be believed.

NanKate

You get me wrong Pammie. Doodledog asked for an alternative name for genuine trans people and I came up with bona fide.

I think she was differentiating trans people who lead their lives peacefully in their new persona, from those such as trans women who are predatory sex offenders.

I understand that some people want to change sex and that is up to them, but I still believe you can’t fundamentally change your sex even after surgery.

I’ve noticed that when Doodledog has asked the pro trans people for a definition of a woman she doesn’t get a response.

Did you hear the head of Stonewall on Woman’s Hour this week? She just couldn’t give a straight answer. I believe Stonewall used to be a great support to gay and lesbian people, but it has changed drastically recently since the trans people have taken over.

My apologies @NanKate - I had my proverbial panties in a knot as it’s a subject that really gets under my skin, and I read your post the wrong way !! Very sorry. I didn’t hear the Woman’s Hour programme but it’s on iplayer, so I plan to catch it when I have a minute, later. Stonewall are losing significant support - I think due to the stance they’ve taken in supporting trans activists.

So where do we think that trans men should be inprisoned: in a man's or women's prison?

I'm only speaking for myself, but I think that similarly to transwomen, if a transman has medically transitioned (ie has a penis) then a man's prison is the best place for him, but if not, then a women's would be better.

Most transmen are likely to be smaller and weaker than most women, just as most TW are likely to be bigger and stronger.

Sorry, that last sentence is rubbish. Most TM are likely to be smaller and weaker than most men, just as most TW are likely to be bigger and stronger than most women.

Pammie1. ? Kate