In thinking that it is time that this country separated church and state?

I think also that it is a good time to divide CofE from the Monarch.
Partly because of the diverse cultures and religions we now have in Britain and also because it is outdated.
Yes like many Monarchs and a lot of the public broken vows he made on his first marriage if he ever meant to keep them.
I don't believe in the divine right of Kings and think he is a mere mortal like the rest of us as his behaviour displays.

WhenIWasYourAge yes, there is quite a complex history reflected in that oath! I believe there are laws involved which specify the monarch must make those promises upon accession. Laws can be changed.

Lathyrus

Oh read too hastily. I’m not sure about after the funeral. I’ll look it up.🙂

It's not just the west of Scotland that has the Orange Lodge it was very strong in the North West of England when I was growing up. Introduced by Irish immigrants.
We had the marches and fife bands and the Larkhall and Glasgow lodges came and matched with them.
One small town has actually had the Riot act read because of fights between Orange and Roman Catholics and a priest was stoned.
It does seem to have died down now and the Blue Star club is less prominent.
My late mother told of going into the RC church with friends and having to cover their heads. gasps were heard and when she looked her friend had a big badge of King Billy in the front of her beret.

We have ALL broken the rules - that is rather the point. Religion is not for the 'good'.

We do not presume to come to this your table,
O merciful Lord, trusting in our own righteousness,
but in your abundant and great mercies.
We are not worthy so much as to gather up
the crumbs under your table; but you are the same Lord
whose character is always to have mercy.
Grant us, therefore, gracious Lord, so to eat
the flesh of your dear Son Jesus Christ,
and to drink his blood, that our sinful bodies
may be made clean by his body,
and our souls washed through his most precious blood,
and that we may evermore dwell in him, and he in us.

Blossoming

WhenIWasYourAge yes, there is quite a complex history reflected in that oath! I believe there are laws involved which specify the monarch must make those promises upon accession. Laws can be changed.

So they can, Blossoming, and we can only hope that they will be!

Good grief Sandelf, what a horrible verse! Eating flesh and drinking blood, I’m glad I’m an atheist!

I believe that separation is desirable. I do not believe that you can be the defender of all faiths and be in a church totally interconnected with the state. Its not right Bishops should sit in the H of Lords, makes a mockery of "all faiths". No one creed should dominate our country.

I do think however that schools should teach the basics of different faiths, and humanism, that we might better understand each other.

AIBU In thinking that it is time that this country separated church and state?

Just a reminder that when you say this country you are referring to England only, Glorianny.

I believe that separation is desirable
And inevitable at some point in the future.

However, I don't think that the debate should be influenced by the past behaviour of one monarch who was unhappily married.

It's far more wide-reaching than that.

FarNorth

You know that the CofE exists only in England?
The CofS has no connection with the monarch.
I don't know about Wales and N Ireland.

I should have rtwt first, FarNorth
the Church in Wales is not established either.

Aldom

FarNorth

You know that the CofE exists only in England?
The CofS has no connection with the monarch.
I don't know about Wales and N Ireland.

The Church in Wales was disestablished on 31st March 1920.
My husband was ordained priest in the Church in Wales.

And Aldom, apologies for not rtwt!

Our vicar is an avowed republican.

Blossoming

Good grief Sandelf, what a horrible verse! Eating flesh and drinking blood, I’m glad I’m an atheist!

It's symbolic, Blossoming

The Last Supper 🙂 is of significant because Jesus identified the bread and wine as symbolic of his own body and blood.

Oh I agree, Blossoming - sorry it has upset you. The bread and the wine become the body and blood 'to us' - they symbolise flesh and blood. Until a couple of years ago I took the view that it is all mumbo jumbo. It is, but it helps when life gets so hard you cannot cope, and must cope at the same time. 'Faith' is an act of will and is not knowledge. Those who know they are good and those who can cope alone with everything life can throw at them have no need of it. It is for the weak, and fallible. IMHO

I'm writing here as one who is not a monarchist nor a theist, and who is in principle opposed to having an established church. I would also like to make it clear that I am not, and never have been, an adherent of the cult of Diana, though beyond that I do not intend to go. So, on that basis…

Oh, please! Give Charles a break. His mother has barely been buried, and after all those frustrating years of being on standby to take over her job he's now in it up to his eyeballs. If he, many years ago now, sought comfort in the arms of the woman he had always loved and who understood him in ways that his own father, a "man's man" as a military one-time bf of mine who met him said, did not. It's not like he's been a reckless rake, carousing around the city in the small hours of the morning. He has some funny views on some things, and some sound views on others, and he may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer, but he's always been a gentle and thoughtful man, kit seems to me. As a person I rather like him. Consider some of his predecessors who have held the role of head of the Church of England: Edward VII was hardly an angel. George IV? <splutter>!

As a wise man didn't quite say once, "let she who is without sin cast the first stone".

I’m atheist as is my family. Growing up in Scotland I was banned from bringing any RC into the house. My best friends always seemed to be RC - I couldnt care about anyones beliefs just so long as they don’t try to convert me! Sectarianism is still rife just look at Glasgow Rangers and Glasgow Celtic football teams and their clashes over religion.

I'm in favour of a gradual move to a secular society, and so a dis-establishment of the C of E seems the right way to go.
It should have nothing to do with sectarianism.

I think to move away from the Church would be the wrong thing to. It gives us a good grounding on how to live our lives. None of us is perfect but we can all ask for forgiveness. The lack of morality in our country is despicable.

Given that so many people are not practising Christians anyway (though they may describe themselves as nominally C of E) I’m not sure that disestablishment would result in a secular society anyway. Other faiths are still very active in the U.K., and the poor old C of E is (to me) pretty inoffensive anyway.

I forget who said its motto should be ‘Tea and cakes or death!’ - Eddie Izzard? - but at any rate, that is surely not far off.

sandelf

Oh I agree, Blossoming - sorry it has upset you. The bread and the wine become the body and blood 'to us' - they symbolise flesh and blood. Until a couple of years ago I took the view that it is all mumbo jumbo. It is, but it helps when life gets so hard you cannot cope, and must cope at the same time. 'Faith' is an act of will and is not knowledge. Those who know they are good and those who can cope alone with everything life can throw at them have no need of it. It is for the weak, and fallible. IMHO

I'm not sure if the Catholic church still believes in transubstantiation?

It can bring comfort and help to those who need it

Oh, please! Give Charles a break
👏👏👏

Sandybeth

I think to move away from the Church would be the wrong thing to. It gives us a good grounding on how to live our lives. None of us is perfect but we can all ask for forgiveness. The lack of morality in our country is despicable.

Would it make a lot of difference to many people?

Christian's will not stop going to church.
I know congregations are declining but is that more noticeable in Scotland and Wales than England?

Wandering apostrophe- apologies!!

It is true that some faith schools show better pupil achievement than other schools but research shows that is primarily because they are covertly selective. They usually take fewer deprived children and more children of ambitious and better off parents. The National Foundation for Educational Research found that the difference in achievement was based on intake (see their evidence to the Parliamentary Education and Skills Select Committee in 2003). That aside, religion has a lot to answer for in the terrible things which have happened in the world - not only in history but in modern times (for example, the treatment of pregnant girls by Irish religious orders, massacres in India and Myanmar, civil strife in Northern Ireland, abuse by priests, etc.). Not all of that can be ascribed to 'extremists'. In many cases separation by religion is the same as ethnic separation and means children grow up knowing little of other groups. Faith schools (like 'public' schools) weaken social cohesion. A significant danger of faith schools is that they may exclude access to other ideas (a right enshrined in Article 13, Convention on the Rights of the Child, adopted by the UN in1989). A late friend - a qualified teacher - taught briefly in a faith school which systematically tore pages deemed to be unsuitable out of text books. Personally, I would want all children to attend secular schools with no religious instruction or assemblies (abolishing the 1944 Act requirement) and to receive religious instruction if they so wished out of school. In the interests of social cohesion I would also like to see fee-paying schools abolished.

Lathyrus, there are more Orange walks in Glasgow every than there are in Belfast, and they are a bloody nuisance. There was a nasty incident in Govan a couple of years ago where a nationalist band tried to parade and was set on by unionists with petrol b ombs, amongst other things.

I think I’m getting in a muddle with Unionist, Nationalist, Orange men, Catholics, etc. Together with the geography element of west and east.

I hold my hands up to ignorance but I am interested.

So are Catholics broadly pro independence? Or just south west Catholics?

I’ll start with one question at a time. Or maybe we need a different thread. Or perhaps direct me to a (simple) site, preferably a fairly neutral summing up if that’s possible.

There will be many different experiences and mine is not as has been described. I taught in two Church schools - Protestant - and in neither of them were any pages ripped out of books! One was a tiny city school and was actually next to the church. The children did go into the Church once a week and a short service replaced assembly. Many parents would join these occasions plus other members of the congregation. Any celebrations in the school were supported by the congregation and they did practical things such as making cakes etc for school functions.
The other school was a much larger school and we only held celebrations such as the Carol concert or nativity play in the church. Both the schools were very popular and had children from a wide area as parents considered the schools to have better moral standards. Neither school had more religious input than the non Church schools I had taught in.