In thinking that it is time that this country separated church and state?

In Scotland, the only church which has schools is the Roman Catholic church. The Church of Scotland, the Scottish Episcopal church and other Christian churches do not run schools, and so schools are known as denominational (RC) and non-denominational (everyone else). (I think other religions are permitted to set up schools, but don't quote me on that.) In some places there are shared campuses with both kinds of school, and that seems to me to be a good way forward towards making everyone the same and leaving religion to the churches.

In this area there are some RC primary schools but then everyone goes to the local secondary schools - also a good thing IMO.

LadyHonoriaDedlock

Lathyrus, there are more Orange walks in Glasgow every than there are in Belfast, and they are a bloody nuisance. There was a nasty incident in Govan a couple of years ago where a nationalist band tried to parade and was set on by unionists with petrol b ombs, amongst other things.

Quite agree. They tried to have one in Aberdeen once, but the lead balloon effect meant that they gave up, and quite right too.

Religion is a poor source of morality. Secular humanism is demonstrably superior. The sooner religious schools are abolished the better.

Brahumbug

Religion is a poor source of morality. Secular humanism is demonstrably superior. The sooner religious schools are abolished the better.

👍

sandelf

Oh I agree, Blossoming - sorry it has upset you. The bread and the wine become the body and blood 'to us' - they symbolise flesh and blood. Until a couple of years ago I took the view that it is all mumbo jumbo. It is, but it helps when life gets so hard you cannot cope, and must cope at the same time. 'Faith' is an act of will and is not knowledge. Those who know they are good and those who can cope alone with everything life can throw at them have no need of it. It is for the weak, and fallible. IMHO

Many of those with a sense of a spirit at work as part of ur lives have not creeds or vicars or hierarchy, sandelf.

"It is for the weak, and fallible". I always smile when I hear this. Having a faith is a challenge as well as grace!

No, it is not an act of will for me: it is a calling that demands much and gives much back.

I don't like being patronised, which you are of course, perhaps as a challenge? Just sad you cant be open to the feelings of others.

Here, here Brahumbug.
Keep religion out of schools, I’m my opinion. If parents wish their children to follow a faith, teach them and go with them to places of worship during their evenings and weekends.

Urmstongran

Here, here Brahumbug.
Keep religion out of schools, I’m my opinion. If parents wish their children to follow a faith, teach them and go with them to places of worship during their evenings and weekends.

I think its valuable to give children knowledge and choices, Urmstongran across the board (I mean multi-cultural).

Its not necessarily best to have a situation where children ONLY have a view on religion from parents who have very strong views ..leaves the children with no critical appraisals or choices to make if they lack information.

To me its part of choices within a framework of ethics as well as faith, and as I've made clear above, includes humanism.

Better informed than in the dark. Better to begin to see how different people are in their opinion and ethics over the world and why, then ignorant of them. What makes people from different backgrounds do what they do? How far can we accept difference, where do we draw lines. As a child brought up in an entirely atheist family, I'm glad to have had the opportunity to have some very benign Christian introductions at school, including singing the Messiah in our choir. I'm a Quaker now, no creed, sit alongside in our meetings with people of more buddhist interests, no leaders - and would be the power for it had I not had the chance at school. It wasn't rammed down my throat.

correct, "would be the worst for it had I not had the chance" not "power"

Totally agree with OP. And time to get rid of the influence of the one CoE Chruch in the Lords too. Religion is a private matter- and should have no influence on politics, education, the Law, and society at large.

If choice is to be given in the form of education about all religions, without favour- then perhaps I could agree. Not sure.

But the other alternative has to be taught to, about humanism and atheism, and that both can be just as worthy options- without loss of morality.

Better informed than in the dark.

Comparative religion is taught in most schools now and is an option at GCSE too. That wasn't the case many years ago so that is a progressive step.

Fleurpepper

If choice is to be given in the form of education about all religions, without favour- then perhaps I could agree. Not sure.

But the other alternative has to be taught to, about humanism and atheism, and that both can be just as worthy options- without loss of morality.

Yes, these are are taught in many secondary schools now.

*Witzend Fri 18-Nov-22 17:54:08
Given that so many people are not practising Christians anyway (though they may describe themselves as nominally C of E) I’m not sure that disestablishment would result in a secular society anyway. Other faiths are still very active in the U.K*

Surely a secular society is one where there is no special treatment given to religious groups. They are treated just the same as any other organisation. We need organisations that focus on morality and ethics.

King Charles II sincerely believed that he was chosen by God to rule and he came to a rather sticky end! Beheaded by a posse of his subjects - the politicos. Time to get rid of all the religious mumbo jumbo and have a simple scandi type inauguration. A quick flick civil ceremony.

Thanks for some interesting posts.
The sectarian issue reminded me of a friend who taught in Liverpool and thought it would be a great experience for her class to visit the new RC cathedral. When they got there some of the class refused to go in and others cried because they thought if they went in they would go straight to hell. She hadn't realised how much the Protestants hated the RCs.

biglouis

King Charles II sincerely believed that he was chosen by God to rule and he came to a rather sticky end! Beheaded by a posse of his subjects - the politicos. Time to get rid of all the religious mumbo jumbo and have a simple scandi type inauguration. A quick flick civil ceremony.

That was Charles1.
Charles 11 was followed by his brother James who was a Catholic. He was forced to surrender the throne to his protestant daughter Mary and her husband William.
Charles's don't have good track records as kings.

Glorianny

Thanks for some interesting posts.
The sectarian issue reminded me of a friend who taught in Liverpool and thought it would be a great experience for her class to visit the new RC cathedral. When they got there some of the class refused to go in and others cried because they thought if they went in they would go straight to hell. She hadn't realised how much the Protestants hated the RCs.

I think that is more prevalent in some areas, as we have witnessed over the years, but most people in the UK are not that bothered imo.
I don't know what religion my friends or neighbours are, if they believe in anything at all.

Members of our family are of different religions, but not particularly fervent adherents.

Absolutely church and state should be separated - I have been banging on about this for decades.

Why should there be faith schools that everyone has to fund? Why should I pay for children to be taught all this stuff? It is thoroughly iniquitous. Let people indoctrinate their own children in whatever religion they choose - but don't ask me to pay for it or to be happy about all the children in these schools receiving the same message. Two and two is four in one lesson, then Genesis in the next, without ever making the distinction that one is proven fact, and the other is belief/allegory. I have no problem with children learning about religion as long as all the statements are prefaced by: this is what some people believe.

All state school should be non-aligned.

Theologically the Head of the Anglican Church is Jesus Christ. The reigning monarch is the Supreme Governor.

I have no problem with comparative religious studies being taught. They have clearly had an influence in the world and that influence should be explored, but purely as a philosophical position and certainly not accorded any special privileges.

This is interesting www.churchofengland.org/about/leadership-and-governance

My Gdcs go to a C of E primary which certainly takes pupils of other faiths - besides those of parents like dd and SiL - not remotely religious and didn’t pretend to be churchgoers to get a place - it’s done purely on catchment area AFAIK. There are certainly Muslim and Hindu pupils, and the children are taught about other faiths.

Glorianny

Thanks for some interesting posts.
The sectarian issue reminded me of a friend who taught in Liverpool and thought it would be a great experience for her class to visit the new RC cathedral. When they got there some of the class refused to go in and others cried because they thought if they went in they would go straight to hell. She hadn't realised how much the Protestants hated the RCs.

An Irish friend - exactly the same age as me - once told me that at maybe 14, she and some friends were walking in their town (IIRC Limerick) when they passed the Protestant church, where the door was standing open.

One of them said, ‘Dare we go inside?’
The others were horrified, honestly thinking they’d be struck dead - their teachers had been mostly nuns, who’d fostered fear and loathing of anything Protestant.

Anyway, the one who’d spoken did go in - they others waited fearfully for a thunderbolt to strike her dead.

But the girl looked around and said, ‘Oh, it’s just like our church!’

And from then on, my friend said, the ‘spell’ was broken.

At the time I was absolutely gobsmacked to hear this - someone of exactly my own age who’d been taught to think like this - so utterly different from my own, nominally C of E upbringing. To me, it was like something out of the mediaeval era.

Of course religion should be taught in school - comparative religion, all faiths. It's part of general knowledge and hopefully gives better understanding of all people of faith - Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus etc - leading to better relationships between different groups.

There is no such thing as a non denominational school in Scotland .My children both went to one of those schools and had visits from ministers weekly and religious services frequently .
Its a myth that they are non denominational.
On the other hand the local catholic secondary schools have always had children of other faiths ,mainly muslim bt sikh ,jewish and yes protestant aka Church of Scotland,Simply because it was a single sex school for a long time .
I went to that school growing up and often joined the non catholic girls in the library when there was a service ...when I was going through a phase of non belief .
No one batted an eye and they left me to figure it out for myself.I never did and am firmly anti organised religion .
My late FIL insisted we get married in a Church of Scotland ,he was an orangeman !
In those days you did what your parents wanted...well we did we were young just 20 and 21 .When my daughter who he loved dearly grew up and had her own family ,even though he adored her wee boy he refused to attend the catholic ceremony for the baptism.THATS how ingrained it is in the west of Scotland .
I said I heard someone say the King only supports protestants in a pub recently ...but tens of thousands of Rangers supporters call themselves the Kings 11 ..it was the Queens 11 and hang on every word when it suits them .
We have tried very hard to rid ourselves of this element ,but sadly like in NI its bred in the bone and confirmed daily by bigotted family .
Charles could have by a few words of support for ALL religions and none helped sort this mess ,its about the only useful thing he could do for us