In thinking that it is time that this country separated church and state?

Don’t you think that if you analysed 100 Christians, 100 ‘other religions’ and 100 ‘no religious faith’, you would probably find around the same percentage of good people, the same percentage of bad people and the same percentage of people who claim they are good because of their religion or lack of it, in each group.
Oh and the same percentage of people who would look down on the other groups because their ‘belief’ was better.

Nadateturbe
Many Protestants attend RC schools, but not vice versa.
Why is that? Is that because the RC faith in NI teaches that protestants are wrong, or would it be a sin needing to be confessed or hidden?

The problem with Christianity is that it is based on compassion and love for others.

And that is a problem??

I’d love to know the answer to that question.

Paddyann the RC Church in NI doesn't want integrated education. Many Protestants attend RC schools, but not vice versa. Integrated education is very much needed here.
I think the curriculum as Callistemon described is good.

The problem with Christianity is that it is based on compassion and love for others.
And that is a problem??

Yes, that’s a valid point. But if children don’t learn about other faiths and cultures at school, they might never get the chance. My two visited a synagogue, a mosque, a Hindu temple and a gudwara when they were six or seven - at the age when they were inquisitive and not embarrassed to ask questions. I think that was good for them.

You’re right though. I don’t know what I think now

Doodledog

I very much think that comparative religion should be a core curriculum subject, to encourage understanding and promote tolerance.

In principle, this seems like an excellent idea. It should promote understanding, at the very least. Especially when the teachings of various religions overlap in aspects such as kindness, forgiveness, etc.

But religion, like any philosophy is ripe for distortion by those with an agenda. The tenets, passages in holy scripts, etc, are easily contorted to mean what those with a vested interest want them to mean. Look how the American hard-right are using religion as a political weapon and where any criticism is met with accusations of 'ungodliness' and 'immorality'. I've been told on more than one occasion on social media when questioning (civilly) someone's insistence that they are morally 'right' on an issue, that I'm under the influence of evil and need to find Jesus (comments along those lines anyway). There is no acceptance of the fact that someone without religion can be a good and honest person.

So what children are taught in school might be very different to what they discover as the reality. And their initial tolerance might well be strained. So I believe (as an atheist) that if comparative religions are taught (and I think they should be) this aspect - the manipulation of religion by those with an agenda - should also be part of the lessons. In the hands of those with questionable motives, religion can be a force for adverse and calamitous events; I have that image of Trump holding the bible up in his hand like some Roman Emperor issuing an edict after peaceful demonstrators had been cleared out of the way by police with tear gas and flash grenades in Washington DC. The man using the bible as a prop for a photo' op was pretty sickening, I thought. As far as I can gather, many Christians were dismayed by this ploy too.

I am neither religious nor royalist, so have no axe to grind at all about whether King Charles should be head of the Church. I dare say that's up to the Archbishop of Canterbury, but I wouldn't argue either way.

I have mixed feelings about whether there should be a complete separation. Part of me thinks that religion should be a purely individual (or family) matter, and no particular one should be given precedence, but OTOH, British culture has long been based on the Christian religion, with Christmas and Easter holidays being the main expression of that. I think that having Bank Holidays that most people can observe at the same time is a good thing. I sympathise with those from other religions who don't have their holy days honoured, but as often as not companies can do a trade and ensure that employees willing to work Christmas can have Diwali or Eid off instead. I hated Sundays as a child (I had to go to Sunday School and wasn't allowed to play outside), but can't help wishing that we all had a family day now - not for religious reasons, but a day when mum and dad are both at home and the family can all sit down in front of a film or fall out over a compulsory game of Monopoly . Or maybe not .

Not great in unhappy families, I know, and it wouldn't work for everyone, but I think it's a shame that family life has to come second a lot of the time.

I very much think that comparative religion should be a core curriculum subject, to encourage understanding and promote tolerance. I wouldn't keep Christian assemblies, but I don't think I would go as far as to ban all religious symbols in schools as I believe they do in France.

It's tricky, as whatever any of us think, people will believe what they believe, and attempts to ban them from doing so have never ended well.

Wheniwasyourage, thanks for the correction. The Church of Scotland is not established . It was accepted by the late Queen as the national church in Scotland(Crathie kirk).

I was born in and lived much of my life in Scotland and come from a liberal C of S family with Glasgow origins. I am as socialist in my views as Paddyanne.

Thanks for your post Wheniwasyour age. I was just starting a post on similar lines as I live in the north of Scotland and during my schooling days and also that of my now adult children and have no recollection of any church ministers visiting our schools.

As to Charles and the rest of the royal family - who knows what they really believe? What would happen if Charles declared himself a humanist/agnostic or whatever? It is far more likely that this is the reality.

Now that, I do find fascinating. I'd guess agnostic re Charles. tying up in some ways with his genuine love of the natural world. I think he will quietly change quite a bit but nothing as fundamental as recommending a split.

But the next generation? if they really do not believe, how can they honestly go along with the whole shebang of religious coronation?

I think to move away from the Church would be the wrong thing to. It gives us a good grounding on how to live our lives. None of us is perfect but we can all ask for forgiveness. The lack of morality in our country is despicable.

This implies that an absence of morality and being unable to "live our lives" is the the sole realm of those who have no religion. I think not! Religions have a massive amount to answer for in terms of living lives "wrongly" and embracing unacceptable morality.

Let us teach our children to be kind to everyone as moral guidance; and teach them about the existence of religions and what their role in history has been. Then they can make up their own minds. Values education is the way to go.

It is mainly in education that the church/state partnership is apparent - and iniquitous.

It should stop.

That does not take away anyone's religious freedom; but leaves us to deal honestly with children.

As to Charles and the rest of the royal family - who knows what they really believe? What would happen if Charles declared himself a humanist/agnostic or whatever? It is far more likely that this is the reality.

I think it's actually very dangerous to rely on "outside authority" like a religion to define morality or being able to be moral. Although I personally experience a sense of the spiritual helping the best side of myself- trying to be loving, forgiving, living a "good" life - its certainly not the case its necessary and in the case of some fundamentalist religious beliefs, desirable.

To those that think it is, I would pose this question - does your god not give you the choice as a human being to choose love or evil?

Sandybeth

I think to move away from the Church would be the wrong thing to. It gives us a good grounding on how to live our lives. None of us is perfect but we can all ask for forgiveness. The lack of morality in our country is despicable.

You are suggesting that only those who believe in God can be decent human beings. And that is far from true.

As for the lack of morality - I would like to understand your definition of the virtue. Apart from the obvious immorality of murder, rape, and abuse, which I believe most people, theists or atheists consider to be immoral.

And there are sufficient numbers of people who profess to be Christians who certainly behave in a manner which goes against the teachings of their faith.

So - what is the morality of our country that you find despicable - who are the people, what is it they do that is immoral?

Witzend, I liked your story of 'daring to enter a Protestant Church'. It reminded me of a priest of the Anglo-Catholic tradition who told me there was a Roman Catholic Church on the quays in Dublin which had a wooden notice board at the back stating there were two sins that could only be forgiven by a Cardinal - can't remember what the first one was, but the second was entering a Protestant Church. I wonder if the notice is still there. Next time, in Dublin...

MawtheMerrier

^Quote paddyann54 Sun 20-Nov-22 09:30:12
There is no such thing as a non denominational school in Scotland .My children both went to one of those schools and had visits from ministers weekly and religious services frequently
Really?
I went to Primary and High School in the Borders, both entirely non-denominational. I have no recollection of visiting ministers/priests or indeed any faith leaders.

My DGC who are at non-denominational public (state as they would be known elsewhere) schools in the west of Scotland have classmates of all religions and none. They are taught about all religions. They mark all sorts of religious festivals too. I disagree completely that there is no such thing as a non-denominational school in Scotland, even in the west.

Caleo, as has been pointed out by other posters, disestablishment is not going to happen in Scotland as we have no established church as the C of E is in England.

As someone who grew up in Glasgow, I would like to point out that not everyone there is as hardline in their views as paddyann54's FIL!

Blondiescot
but actual worship (prayers etc) should not be part of a state education

I don’t know about other parts of the UK but in England that has been increasingly happening in primaries for a long time before the government bill I mention below.

In February 2022 a bill had its second reading in the HoP.
The existing law meant that collective worship be ‘wholly or mainly of a broadly Christian character’.
The new Bill says that , non-faith schools are to provide daily assemblies which are ‘principally directed towards furthering the spiritual, moral, social and cultural education of the pupils regardless of religion or belief.

A long time ago, many non faith primary schools reduced the number of whole school assemblies (back when we had to analyse the curriculum, say how much time was actually spent teaching -time spent walking to assembly and back was not seen as valuable by OFSTED.)
Some heads, even back then, said it was unnecessary to have lunchtime or end of school prayers and the songs sung in assembly need not be hymns.
Assemblies directed children to think about values that should be part of life-compassion, equality, tolerance etc, and were also for celebrating achievements of children, whether academic or related to the school ethos.

I'd be all for the separation of church and state. I'd also go one step further and say that religion should play no part in a state education. When I say that, I'm not opposed to pupils learning about different faiths, but actual worship (prayers etc) should not be part of a state education. If parents feel so strongly that they want their child to receive a religious education, then they should be prepared to pay for it.

PaddyAnne makes the best case for disestablishment. So called "religions" are simply sects and are divisive.

BTW , PaddyAnne, is anything effective being done by the football authority to stop Rangers and Celtic sectarianism? If so that's the way to go with political sectarianism.

Plenty of 'non-denominational' schools in Scotland do have such visits and/or services.
My secondary school had an assembly, with hymns, every morning.
My GDC's school certainly tells them religious stuff. There are arguments about religion among the children. My GDC is 9 and doesn't accept any religion but does accept there may be a God.

^Quote paddyann54 Sun 20-Nov-22 09:30:12
There is no such thing as a non denominational school in Scotland .My children both went to one of those schools and had visits from ministers weekly and religious services frequently
Really?
I went to Primary and High School in the Borders, both entirely non-denominational. I have no recollection of visiting ministers/priests or indeed any faith leaders.

Religion divides people. On the one hand, it makes for stability if a country's population are following the same teaching. On the other hand, people should be free to have their own beliefs. The problem with Christianity is that it is based on compassion and love for others. This is not always appropriate when it comes to doing what is best for society as a whole. I'm thinking here of the past policy of allowing unmarried mothers to be given a home and an allowance so that they could keep their babies. This rebounded because it encouraged young women to get pregnant. We now have a generation who have been raised without proper standards, and are filling our prisons and making our streets unsafe.
I won't bring Iran into the discussion as, although very relevant, I'll be accused of racism.

There is no such thing as a non denominational school in Scotland .My children both went to one of those schools and had visits from ministers weekly and religious services frequently .
Its a myth that they are non denominational.
On the other hand the local catholic secondary schools have always had children of other faiths ,mainly muslim bt sikh ,jewish and yes protestant aka Church of Scotland,Simply because it was a single sex school for a long time .
I went to that school growing up and often joined the non catholic girls in the library when there was a service ...when I was going through a phase of non belief .
No one batted an eye and they left me to figure it out for myself.I never did and am firmly anti organised religion .
My late FIL insisted we get married in a Church of Scotland ,he was an orangeman !
In those days you did what your parents wanted...well we did we were young just 20 and 21 .When my daughter who he loved dearly grew up and had her own family ,even though he adored her wee boy he refused to attend the catholic ceremony for the baptism.THATS how ingrained it is in the west of Scotland .
I said I heard someone say the King only supports protestants in a pub recently ...but tens of thousands of Rangers supporters call themselves the Kings 11 ..it was the Queens 11 and hang on every word when it suits them .
We have tried very hard to rid ourselves of this element ,but sadly like in NI its bred in the bone and confirmed daily by bigotted family .
Charles could have by a few words of support for ALL religions and none helped sort this mess ,its about the only useful thing he could do for us

Of course religion should be taught in school - comparative religion, all faiths. It's part of general knowledge and hopefully gives better understanding of all people of faith - Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus etc - leading to better relationships between different groups.

Glorianny

Thanks for some interesting posts.
The sectarian issue reminded me of a friend who taught in Liverpool and thought it would be a great experience for her class to visit the new RC cathedral. When they got there some of the class refused to go in and others cried because they thought if they went in they would go straight to hell. She hadn't realised how much the Protestants hated the RCs.

An Irish friend - exactly the same age as me - once told me that at maybe 14, she and some friends were walking in their town (IIRC Limerick) when they passed the Protestant church, where the door was standing open.

One of them said, ‘Dare we go inside?’
The others were horrified, honestly thinking they’d be struck dead - their teachers had been mostly nuns, who’d fostered fear and loathing of anything Protestant.

Anyway, the one who’d spoken did go in - they others waited fearfully for a thunderbolt to strike her dead.

But the girl looked around and said, ‘Oh, it’s just like our church!’

And from then on, my friend said, the ‘spell’ was broken.

At the time I was absolutely gobsmacked to hear this - someone of exactly my own age who’d been taught to think like this - so utterly different from my own, nominally C of E upbringing. To me, it was like something out of the mediaeval era.

My Gdcs go to a C of E primary which certainly takes pupils of other faiths - besides those of parents like dd and SiL - not remotely religious and didn’t pretend to be churchgoers to get a place - it’s done purely on catchment area AFAIK. There are certainly Muslim and Hindu pupils, and the children are taught about other faiths.

This is interesting www.churchofengland.org/about/leadership-and-governance

I have no problem with comparative religious studies being taught. They have clearly had an influence in the world and that influence should be explored, but purely as a philosophical position and certainly not accorded any special privileges.