In thinking that it is time that this country separated church and state?

Curtaintwitcher

Religion divides people. On the one hand, it makes for stability if a country's population are following the same teaching. On the other hand, people should be free to have their own beliefs. The problem with Christianity is that it is based on compassion and love for others. This is not always appropriate when it comes to doing what is best for society as a whole. I'm thinking here of the past policy of allowing unmarried mothers to be given a home and an allowance so that they could keep their babies. This rebounded because it encouraged young women to get pregnant. We now have a generation who have been raised without proper standards, and are filling our prisons and making our streets unsafe.
I won't bring Iran into the discussion as, although very relevant, I'll be accused of racism.

The problem with Christianity is that it is based on compassion and love for others. This is not always appropriate when it comes to doing what is best for society as a whole.

It might be difficult to feel compassion and love for, say, a murderous serial rapist, but other than that I'm at a loss to work out any other scenario where it would be inappropriate.

This rebounded because it encouraged young women to get pregnant. We now have a generation who have been raised without proper standards, and are filling our prisons and making our streets unsafe.

Ah, I see it now!

Compassion, yes.

Our wonderful Queen was an excellent head of the church of England, even though her ancestor Henry8th founded it on a complete lack of compassion or goodness.

I went to a three-roomed C of E primary school - there was no local alternative - and, apart from the usual morning assembly, every week the whole school went in a crocodile to the Parish Church. A blatant attempt at early indoctrination. Fortunately it had little impact on me. I strongly believe religion should be voluntary and in no way supported by the State.

Dickens

Curtaintwitcher

Religion divides people. On the one hand, it makes for stability if a country's population are following the same teaching. On the other hand, people should be free to have their own beliefs. The problem with Christianity is that it is based on compassion and love for others. This is not always appropriate when it comes to doing what is best for society as a whole. I'm thinking here of the past policy of allowing unmarried mothers to be given a home and an allowance so that they could keep their babies. This rebounded because it encouraged young women to get pregnant. We now have a generation who have been raised without proper standards, and are filling our prisons and making our streets unsafe.
I won't bring Iran into the discussion as, although very relevant, I'll be accused of racism.

The problem with Christianity is that it is based on compassion and love for others. This is not always appropriate when it comes to doing what is best for society as a whole.

It might be difficult to feel compassion and love for, say, a murderous serial rapist, but other than that I'm at a loss to work out any other scenario where it would be inappropriate.

This rebounded because it encouraged young women to get pregnant. We now have a generation who have been raised without proper standards, and are filling our prisons and making our streets unsafe.

Ah, I see it now!

Please could someone explain to me exactly what the role of men in all this is. I was taught they were necessary for a woman to have a baby and they then were the child's father. Obviously I have been misled and some girls were doing it all themselves.

Please could someone explain to me exactly what the role of men in all this is. I was taught they were necessary for a woman to have a baby and they then were the child's father. Obviously I have been misled and some girls were doing it all themselves

That's the whole basis of Christianity, Glorianny
The Virgin Birth.

Obviously I have been misled and some girls were doing it all themselves.

Commonly known as ‘getting themselves pregnant’?

The virgin birth is only part of the basis of Christianity, but we seem to have digressed somewhat.

Glorianny

Dickens

Curtaintwitcher

Religion divides people. On the one hand, it makes for stability if a country's population are following the same teaching. On the other hand, people should be free to have their own beliefs. The problem with Christianity is that it is based on compassion and love for others. This is not always appropriate when it comes to doing what is best for society as a whole. I'm thinking here of the past policy of allowing unmarried mothers to be given a home and an allowance so that they could keep their babies. This rebounded because it encouraged young women to get pregnant. We now have a generation who have been raised without proper standards, and are filling our prisons and making our streets unsafe.
I won't bring Iran into the discussion as, although very relevant, I'll be accused of racism.

The problem with Christianity is that it is based on compassion and love for others. This is not always appropriate when it comes to doing what is best for society as a whole.

It might be difficult to feel compassion and love for, say, a murderous serial rapist, but other than that I'm at a loss to work out any other scenario where it would be inappropriate.

This rebounded because it encouraged young women to get pregnant. We now have a generation who have been raised without proper standards, and are filling our prisons and making our streets unsafe.

Ah, I see it now!

Please could someone explain to me exactly what the role of men in all this is. I was taught they were necessary for a woman to have a baby and they then were the child's father. Obviously I have been misled and some girls were doing it all themselves.

Quite so Glorianny!

But isn't that always the way. In Victorian times, it was not unknown for the master of the house to impregnate one of the servants and then have her sacked for getting pregnant. Allegedly. I bet the shame and moral indignation was always directed at the unfortunate woman. I don't know if the man suffered recriminations (if indeed the crime was even acknowledged on his part) but the attitude seemed to be that men were, well, just men, and it was up to the woman to control his passions.

I know single mothers are not in that position in the 21st century, but it still appears that women are expected to take responsibility for men's sexual behaviour.

I do wonder tho' how many women actually deliberately get pregnant purely because they will be given accommodation. I would imagine that the majority of involuntary single mothers - where there is no father on the scene - get pregnant because of an ill-judged relationship... and then become so undeserving of compassion and love <<<sigh>>>.

Back in the day in my then neck-of-the woods (Twickenham) there was, fortunately, a group of Christian women (my mother among them) who set out to actually show some care and compassion to single mothers struggling on their own and, according to my mother, there was no pursed-lipped judgement of them either. I guess some Christians are more Christian than others...

Doodledog

*Obviously I have been misled and some girls were doing it all themselves.*

Commonly known as ‘getting themselves pregnant’?

... now that is witty!

annodomini

*Mawthe merrier* I went to Primary and High School in the Borders, both entirely non-denominational. I have no recollection of visiting ministers/priests or indeed any faith leaders.
In Ayrshire, where I had both primary and secondary education, there was certainly segregation. There were several Roman Catholic schools and I never met a Catholic socially until I went to University. Our school was, otherwise, non-denominational and the Church had no role in its management or teaching. I hope things have changed in the past 60-70 years.

I think the issue is that (in my day - it may all have changed now) the non-denominational schools were often de facto protestant as no catholics ever chose to go to them. In fact I'd go as far as saying that many catholics did not even know they had that choice.

My own school, which was a state school, had a significantly large jewish minority to the extent that jewish pupils had kosher catering provided and also got jewish holidays. But it would often be casually referred to as a 'protestant school'.

*Dickens, ditto x 100 to some Christians being more ‘Christian’ than others.

An old aunt of mine is a churchgoer who bangs on about it, and is also the most outspokenly judgemental person I’ve ever had the misfortune to encounter. Among other things she once told me that it was my mother’s own fault that she got dementia. Now, if she’d been more like the sprightly 91 year olds at her church…

OTOH my mother’s long term cleaning lady - also a regular churchgoer - was a lovely and genuinely good person. TBH I don’t know what we’d have done without her, during the years of dementia before my mother finally went to a care home.

I'm keeping schtump.
I always manage to p!££ off the god botherers as it is!!

I cannot think why a believer would be p****d off. Hopefully they recognise differences of belief and have respect for others.

I have many Christian friends and they know my agnosticism, but we each treat the other with respect.

Luckygirl13 I agree with your post.

It’s interesting though, how many people evidently discuss religion and so know what beliefs others hold.
Out of our staff of 60, I only know the religion of 2, for definite. One because we go to the same church and one because they agreed to talk to classes about their religion when Buddhism was being studied.

What's a "God botherer" Ali08?

Most of these posts seem to be about religion itself, but the post was asking whether it should be separated from the state, as in France for instance. It's not about whether religion is a good thing, but whether it has a special place in society, such as C of E bishops sitting in the House of Lords.

We see the impact of religion unseparated from the state in Afghanistan and Iran not to mention India and Pakistan.

Time to disestablish.

We are a multi-faith/agnostic/atheist country: I cannot think of any state historically where it was a good idea to be ruled by any dominant faith, infact quite the opposite. Having strong moral values for some may be strengthened by faith: others have strong moral values with no faith. Personally, being a Quaker strengthens my attempts (!) to live compassionately, but that's me. We don't have a creed or "have" to subscribe to this or that specific faith narrative

It's not therefore appropriate to have the monarchy as the head of a state faith, nor have bishops in the H of Lords.

In short, a million times 'yes'. I belong to the Secular Society which is working towards that end.

Jane71

Most of these posts seem to be about religion itself, but the post was asking whether it should be separated from the state, as in France for instance. It's not about whether religion is a good thing, but whether it has a special place in society, such as C of E bishops sitting in the House of Lords.

Yes, it is.

As I posted above, it is already disestablished in Wales.

Disestablishmentarianism does not mean a person is anti-religion.

nadateturbe

The virgin birth is only part of the basis of Christianity, but we seem to have digressed somewhat.

one of the best posts - ever. Brilliant !

Anyone who believes in a virgin birth needs to read a basic biology text.

If state and church were separated would there be any point to the coronation at all? In fact would there be any point to the monarchy at all? Head of the C of E seems to be the only legitimate role the King has left, I can't think of any other.

Most of the monarchs haven’t been exactly paragons of virtue.

Neither have the popes.

Doodledog ''I have mixed feelings about whether there should be a complete separation. Part of me thinks that religion should be a purely individual (or family) matter, and no particular one should be given precedence, but OTOH, British culture has long been based on the Christian religion, with Christmas and Easter holidays being the main expression of that. ''

How many Christian denominations are there in the UK? And how many are linked to our Government, judiciary, education, etc?

Christmas and most celebrations if the Christian calendar, of so many denominations- go straight back to Pagan days and were just somehow included in the Christian calender.

And the same moral principles apply to all or most other religions too anyhow.

As for the rest, Lucky said it so well. Our ability and willing to live by a decent moral code or tolerance, kindness and support, etc- do NOT need a religious backbone to make sense. Why would you need any religion to tell you not to kill others?

Religion is and should remain a) private b) 100% optional