Ex son in law

Sorry it was Urmston Grans post.

Sorry but although he is being difficult it isn't just his fault. If there' s an agreement both parties have to stick to it. It sounds as if the split has been fairly recent. It's a time when both parties need to re-establish trust and find a way to parent together whilst living apart. He shouldn't be being so difficult. On the other hand your DD should not have booked the flights or raised the children's hopes until she was absolutely sure he was OK with it. They need to discuss anything like this before either of them says anything to the children.
I hope you get your holiday. I hope the children are OK. I hope the parents can stop playing games and learn to communicate better.
You may think he's an arse, but he is the father of your GCs. They need to have a good relationship with him. So perhaps don't be so obvious about your dislike.
Teachers will release the children to anyone who is listed as having responsibility. or anyone who it is agreed can collect them. They will not interfere or become involved in parental disputes.

I agree with Glorianny
You've given him just the ammunition he needs, and to all intents and purposes he has the court on his side.

I don't know what I would do, in this situation.

You could keep them both off with an illness, or just brazen it out and pick the children up at lunch time.

Glorianny

Sorry but although he is being difficult it isn't just his fault. If there' s an agreement both parties have to stick to it. It sounds as if the split has been fairly recent. It's a time when both parties need to re-establish trust and find a way to parent together whilst living apart. He shouldn't be being so difficult. On the other hand your DD should not have booked the flights or raised the children's hopes until she was absolutely sure he was OK with it. They need to discuss anything like this before either of them says anything to the children.
I hope you get your holiday. I hope the children are OK. I hope the parents can stop playing games and learn to communicate better.
You may think he's an arse, but he is the father of your GCs. They need to have a good relationship with him. So perhaps don't be so obvious about your dislike.
Teachers will release the children to anyone who is listed as having responsibility. or anyone who it is agreed can collect them. They will not interfere or become involved in parental disputes.

It's a time when both parties need to re-establish trust and find a way to parent together whilst living apart

The OP says he knew in advance but left it until now to object. If that's the case - why didn't he immediately put his foot down as soon as he became aware of the plans and not allow the children to build up their excitement?

I doubt much will happen in the school the last couple of hours on a Friday before half term that will have much impact on their education.

All very well to talk about establishing trust etc after a split - but there are some men, and women, who are controlling and spiteful. And some men can't cope with the fact that the woman is no longer under his control, especially when they see her living a life happily apart from him.

Yes, she should have stuck rigidly to the rules of the court order - but sometimes life gets in the way.

This is 2 hours - not 2 days - before half term. I think he's being deliberately difficult because it gives him satisfaction that he can. He must know the children will be bitterly disappointed if the plans have to change, and that his ex probably might not be able to afford the extra cost involved in cancelling and re-booking. But who cares, as long as he is able to get one over on her. He's using the children as a weapon against her because if he really cared about them he wouldn't want to upset them. Not for the sake of 2 bloody hours.

He's left it until now to cause as much upset as he can.
Bitter exes play those kinds of games.

As the truth is that the Court order says no absences from school unless both parents agree personally I would ask him once more and if no joy I would look for alternative flights.

Otherwise it will surely come back to haunt her.

It’s not a level playing field though Glorianny! If there' s an agreement both parties have to stick to it. You will notice that GrannyIvy said upthread about her son in law He is so difficult. It is different when he wants to do things and my daughter gives to him constantly for the children

There’s the rub.
That’s why he’s an arse. He stretches/bends the rules when it suits him (knowing his ex will capitulate for the sake of the children).

Of course he’s being deliberately difficult Dickens because unfortunately by going even a tiny smidgeon away from the agreement the poster is breaking the rules and this vindictive man will use every inch against his ex wife whether it upsets the children or not
Pay the extra and change the flight as soon as possible and play the future game by jumping to his every legal demand otherwise the next 18 years or however many are left will be a nightmare for everyone
Let us know what you decide

8 years to go with the older boy.
13 years with the little girl.
Stressful.

Urmstongran

It’s not a level playing field though Glorianny! If there' s an agreement both parties have to stick to it. You will notice that GrannyIvy said upthread about her son in law He is so difficult. It is different when he wants to do things and my daughter gives to him constantly for the children

There’s the rub.
That’s why he’s an arse. He stretches/bends the rules when it suits him (knowing his ex will capitulate for the sake of the children).

She also started with "he is toxic, very cruel, and self centred"
So perhaps not an unbiased view. No one can know what goes on in a marriage or all the details of a divorce.

Perhaps one of the problems was he was given a flight time and didn't consider the time the children would need to be at the airport. Now he's realised they will miss school, and yes he may very well just be using the terms of the court order to stir things. But that should have been made clear to him from the start before the children knew anything. Perhaps the mum hadn't realised either, in which case the only reasonable course of action is to apologise profusely, admit the mistake and let him crow a bit.

I think GPs should stay out of their children's divorces and try to stay neutral. You always will want to support your child but it doesn't help to constantly criticise the ex partner when there are children involved.

GrannyIvy’s description of her son-in-law’s personality tends to be confirmed by his behaviour in relation to his attempt to disrupt the family holiday plans. I assume he’s given consent to the children being taken out of the country but didn’t realise the flight times meant leaving school two hours early. Objecting to this is indeed ‘toxic, cruel and self centred’. It’s about power over his ex, not about the best interests or welfare of the children.
School is in a very difficult position. The holiday may be a package so re-arranging flights not an option.
I understand the cost of legal involvement but this needs mum to have legal advice.
I can’t imagine any family court judge wanting this time wasting before them. Parents with or without lawyers would be sent off to reach a solution in the best interests of children,

Not all individuals are able to compromise in the best interests of their children sadly. This mum will need to avoid conflict which probably as the OP says involve conceding at times,

One thing your daughter could do in future is to keep a record of all the times the agreement is varied in his favour (and hers, of course) so that she has some leverage, especially if he tries to take it to court.

Yes, Septimia - it's always a good idea to keep records in cases like.

That's what is advised in cases of abuse and bullying - and it can, and does, help outside parties understand what's going on.

Keeping fingers crossed for your grandchildren and the holiday.

Your daughter knows what her ex is like. She also knows the terms of the court order. She shouldn’t have booked flights which meant them missing any school time without his agreement. She may find him waiting at the school when she goes to collect them, so I hope she doesn’t go alone.

Every sympathy, the children's father is being difficult and controlling, however ........... Sadly he is within his right to object! A court order is just that . If she takes her children out of school for two hours against his wishes then I sincerely hope that does not backfire on her . He is being unkind , controlling and not thinking about the happiness of his children.
Good luck 🍀

Iam64

GrannyIvy’s description of her son-in-law’s personality tends to be confirmed by his behaviour in relation to his attempt to disrupt the family holiday plans. I assume he’s given consent to the children being taken out of the country but didn’t realise the flight times meant leaving school two hours early. Objecting to this is indeed ‘toxic, cruel and self centred’. It’s about power over his ex, not about the best interests or welfare of the children.
School is in a very difficult position. The holiday may be a package so re-arranging flights not an option.
I understand the cost of legal involvement but this needs mum to have legal advice.
I can’t imagine any family court judge wanting this time wasting before them. Parents with or without lawyers would be sent off to reach a solution in the best interests of children,

Not all individuals are able to compromise in the best interests of their children sadly. This mum will need to avoid conflict which probably as the OP says involve conceding at times,

Although Glorianny is talking-sense in her post and giving advice that most impartial on-lookers would agree with in regard to maintaining 'good' relations with the father, it also has to be said that many of us recognise a man who is bitter and vindictive when divorced. In fact some have committed awful crimes in order to punish their ex-partners. And women are not immune to this type of behaviour either. I'm saying this in defence of the grandmother who, though not impartial, has probably witnessed first-hand the controlling behaviour of a man who is, clearly, not putting the best interests of his children first.

Notwithstanding the cost - I agree that Mum needs legal advice- and quick. He has notified the school that he is not in agreement with the plan, so he means business. They are now in an awkward position.

If the mother were taking the children out of school for two days during normal term-time, one could say he has a point - but this is two hours on an end-of-term Friday. I don't know how much has changed since I was at school but on that last day, no 'real' work was done after lunch.

The ex probably didn't realise that the flight times would involve removing the children from school early - we don't know if mum made that clear at the outset. But now he does know, and by Jove - he's going to capitalise on it.

This might cost the mother dearly both economically and emotionally, but I hope it's a lesson-learned for the future. Stick absolutely to the rules of the Court Order and don't give this man a bat's squeaks chance ever again to put a spoke in the wheels. He knows full well what his last-minute objections will incur, and he also knows he has right on his side because of that Court Order. I hope this is the last time this man is able to revel in his power and control because no-one is going to benefit from it, least of all the children.

Your daughter was obviously aware of the terms of the court order as she sought his permission. Personally I wouldn't have given him the ammunition. He could create a nasty scene at the school and even cancellation of the holiday. Either way it will be upsetting for the children and potentially backfire on your daughter.

The SIL sounds unpleasant and controlling but if these terms are part of the agreement your daughter has to stick to them in future I'm afraid. She should however seek legal advice.

Contact the solicitor and also the school, although if he has emailed the school refusing permission I doubt they will agree to release them.
Using his children as weapons will rebound on him ultimately but it is an increasingly common tactic from divorced parents, although it usually evaporates after a few years. Unfortunately it will cost your daughter extra money in expensive flights and solicitor's fees.

Good post Dickens. The ex sounds very much like mine (though I had sole custody and eventually the court denied him physical access). I know the type and you don’t give them the slightest opportunity to make trouble. You play everything by the book and abide absolutely with the terms of a court order. They will, as the saying goes, cut off their nose to spite their face and ignore sensible legal advice to let it go this time. They will insist on going to court regardless of expense.

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

Imagine the satisfaction, though, of being able to say "it's fine, we've rearranged", and not even bat an eyelid.

If it can be rearranged - and at what expense? That would give him just as much satisfaction.

It would remove his means of control about the holiday.
He has the upper hand, and it would take away his power over the situation.

The expense, well, an expensive lesson learned.

Surely it would be the cost of three flights, although I don't know what it would entail.

I'd take a loan of necessary, just to take away his means of causing trouble.

I would rearrange if possible for the sake of the children, but he will have the satisfaction of knowing that he ‘won’ and caused the additional expense - assuming rebooking is possible. He won’t give a damn if the children lose their holiday. He only has the upper hand because the means to cause trouble was handed to him on a plate. This is exactly how my ex would have behaved in these circumstances.

I'm with you on this MissAdventure
I think just "suck it up" this time... and give no opportunity in future.