How many dead Palestinians ....

I've spent the evening watching interviews of Edwin Black, an American Jew who wrote the Tranfer Agreement in 1984. Mind-boggling and I feel so incredibly naïve for not having heard about it before.

Hamas has the declared aim, in its constitution, for the destruction of Israel.

Hamas deliberately uses human shields by putting its weaponry and launching pads in schools, hospitals and homes.

Hamas often orders people in these buildings to stay put.

Hamas continues to fire weapons at Israel, and civilian targets. The Israelis protect their people though, and stop many rockets. No Israeli military commander would ever use human shields. Israelis have many bomb shelters which prevent most civilian casualties

At the formation of Israel in 1948, the then Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, who had spent much of WW2 as a guest of Nazi Germany constantly exhorting Hitler to kill more Jews, was the leader of the Palestinians. Thus there was no hope of peace from the very beginnings.

Having said that, the Israelis need to pull their horns in too, and try other ways of dealing with this. Meanwhile Hamas itself is guilty of most of the civilian deaths, because of their violently inhumane use of human shields.

Anti semitism, not just anti-zionism is on the rise in Europe, thus making the protection of a Jewish homeland even more imperative.

Here's a view from the Jewish perspective, though I cannot find a fact I am able to dispute:
www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/opinion/hamas-is-killing-its-own/story-e6frgd0x-1226997934042

Joan It is hardly surprising that if people's land and homes are taken from them, there is a deep-seated resentment.

Most people whose lives are torn apart by violence want peace and are willing to compromise - as happened eventually in Ireland. There are those that will never accept a compromise (as we have seen in Ireland), but I feel they are in the minority. Hamas no doubt has its share of people who will never accept the existence of Israel, but if the majority of people of Palestine could see that genuine efforts were being made to reach a point where they are treated fairly and the land that has been encroached upon is returned to them, I feel the support for Hamas would dwindle.

The situation in which Palestinians find themselves is absolutely intolerable and when people are powerless and have little to live for, they will take desperate - and, in the case of Hamas firing rockets, seemingly pointless - measures. They see Israel being bankrolled by the US, despite it having ignored so many UN resolutions, and the land "allocated" to them growing smaller and smaller, with their freedom of movement and access to everyday requirements being blocked. And countless times they have seen the UN do nothing to hold Israel to account.

Hamas does fire rockets at Israel but Israel has a very sophisticated shield provided by the US. The facts speak for themselves - over 1,000 Palestinians have been killed (most of whom were civilians), with thousands more injured and their homes reduced to rubble. Around 38 Israeli military personnel and two civilians have been killed.

If it is true that Hamas uses human shields and prevents people leaving buildings that are targeted, why on earth would Palestinians support such an organisation?

Undoubtedly there are people who are using this opportunity to stir up hatred against all Jewish people. That does not mean that everyone who deplores Israel's behaviour, is anti-Semitic. Lots of Jewish people outside of Israel also deplore its behaviour, and some courageous Israelis have campaigned tirelessly for justice for the Palestinians.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-11807152

Joan- I don't know where to begin in response - but for starters, use of human shields , see above for an example. When the UN school was attacked, people were in the process of leaving but despite knowing this, the Israelis attacked. The little boys on the beach - can you explain that? They were running away when they were killed. I'm no apologist for Hamas, far from it, but the Palestinians were treated appallingly by the west in 1947/48 and that's where the roots of all this are with all the land grabs ever since.,can you defend the growth in settlements in the West Bank - even the Americans sometimes feebly criticise that. What about the wall - it could have been built on Israeli land but as well as being built for security, it was used as another way to humiliate and punish ordinary Palestinians. What about the hundreds of Palestinian children in Israeli jails - and as for spewing out hatred, the far right in Israel do a very effective job- that woman MP in particular.

www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/07/16/371556/israel-must-kill-all-palestinian-mothers/

This ^^

Excellent post Eloethan.

The Israelis are ruthlessly targeting hospitals, schools and even a building where Palestinians who had left their homes were sheltering. They are choosing to carry out this course of action, in their own interests, and are therefore responsible for it in my view.

We have a situation where, for people to (possibly) be safe, hospitals would have to be evacuated, schools shut down and families leave their homes. Where would they all go?

https://news.vice.com/article/israel-is-holding-even-more-palestinian-children-in-solitary-for-throwing-rocks

And this ^^

Attacks on Jewish people and synagogues in Europe play right into the hands of the Israelis ..... critics of the Israeli government/army begin to back-off, for fear of being accused of anti-semitism.

As an aside, I'm always curious as to why everyone plays along with the naming of the Israeli army as the 'Israeli Defence Force'.

Israel has an army - like most other countries.

Israel has, foolishly, played right into the hands of Hamas. Now all public opinion is against Israel. Hamas is as evil as any other extreme Islamist sect.

It's the ordinary people of Gaza who are caught in the middle.

I am not supporting Israel, let me make that clear, but neither am I naive enough to think that Hamas is just defending Gaza. If you read their own Charter you will see their true aim.

If this was all one sided then the issue would not be so difficult to solve. Yes, it's 'historical' we all know that, but short of declaring the state of Israel nul and void, or totally wiping it out, then that is a situation that we have to live with. I think Israel would be prepared to settle for a peaceful solution, I doubt Hamas want peace.

There has been a suggestion in some parts of the media that the peace proposals made by the Israelis to Hamas were insincere and tailored so that they were likely to be refused. Israel could then justify embarking on their current course of action.

We all know this kind of thing goes on in any war.

It's hard to know what to believe.

It is always the ordinary people who get caught in the middle. rdinary people do not set out to cause wars.

The famous Christmas football match during the first world war is ample demonstration of this - and I am sure that there are many ordinary Palestinians and Israelis who live happily together as neighbours.

Political leaders' and terrorist organisations' posturing and brinkmanship is what leads us into this mess. It will never change.

Aka - that's a bit simplistic surely. It's not about wiping out Israel and going back to pre-1948. A good start would be no more settlements ( and that must include no more expansion of existing settlements as that is one tactic Israel uses and then tells the world innocent face that they haven't built a new settlement ) and a planned dismantling of all West Bank settlements since some agreed date. Morally, Israel should go back to its pre-1967 birders but in my wildest dreams I can't see that happening. Then something would have to be done about the blockade of Gaza and international help with reconstruction. If the Gazans saw movement like that, then it would impact hugely on their support for Hamas. What won't work is a 'let's start from now' scenario where Israel is allowed to keep absolutely everything it has illegally grabbed. If Hamas, and I know it won't happen, agreed to surrender all its weapons and fill all its tunnels, do you honestly think that Israel would voluntarily surrender anything? They have a wicked, wicked racist government who are hell bent on annihilating the Palestinians and therefore no better than Hamas and its desire to do the same to Israel

I agree with you Aka. I see no point in taking sides, there are issues on both sides. 1948 was a long time ago and we should deal with now. Look how many countries have changed since then and if we want to go back just how far do we go?

I don't think anyone has mentioned that Israel has a shield which protects from the assault from Hamas which is why their death rate is lower.

We had quite a discussion about this yesterday and one person had been born Jewish so as you can imagine we heard a defence which included "What would you do if you were constantly bombarded by another country" her answer was 'fight back'

Please open this link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rD79V9qAPSw&list=UUC_HCbHDzjCOMqvQ_d9xVpA

So sad.

'We had quite a discussion about this yesterday and one person had been born Jewish so as you can imagine we heard a defence which included "What would you do if you were constantly bombarded by another country" her answer was 'fight back' '

CQFD Nonnie- this is exactly what the Palestinians are doing. Not only was 55% of their land initially taken away to give to another people- against their will- but now they are suffering the little land they have left occupied, their rich and ancient agricultural lands have been destroyed, their homes, everything, and Israel are imposing a stringent blockade. There is a clear aggressor here- so it is not possible NOT to take sides.

I wonder if the Nazis called the French Resistance- who dug tunnels, and blew up Nazi strongholds with bombs, and killed Nazis- terrorists?

Was Mandela a terrorist or a Hero? Such a fine line- when you have no other choice, then you have to fight a dirty and terrible war. Very few now would say the Resistants or Mandela had a choice.

Nobody has commented on my post re the Transfer Agreement? Has anyone else heard of the Zionist pact with Htiler from 1933 onwards- to allow rich Jews a passage to Palestine?

What is CQFD please?

Sorry Nonnie- ce qu'il fallait démontrer- an abbreviation often used in English too- roughly 'what had to be demonstrated' or in short 'exactly what you said'.

I know it leads to an infernal vicious circle- but it was Palestianian land that was taken away from them to give to the Jews for Israel- and no wonder they were no happy about it. And it is the Israelis who are now occupying what little land they were left with- and who destroyed the rich agricultural lands and cities and apply a blockade to bomb and starve them out of what little land they've got left.

As Riverwalk said- who would not fight back? As much as I hate war, I think I would fight to protect my loved ones and the land that sustain them.

We are more likely to say QED: Quod erat demonstrandum, granjura.

have a look at the link Granjura it is very moving.

Grannytwice it's so easy to trot out a phrase like 'that's a bit simplistic', presumably intended as an insult. But as you've obviously not understood my post, I'll forgive you xx

Heavens! - if a few grandmothers on a forum cannot discuss a subject without getting heated, what chance is there for the middle east!!

Has it got heated, really- I don't feel it has. It is a hugely complex problem, going back to huge injustice done over half a Century ago- and it is no wonder we do not necessarily agree on the best way to 'solve this'.
It is so tragic, and as said,, so complex- and our own friends and experiences will influence our opinions and attitude. It would be difficult to state that the Palestinians have been the victims from the start, through no fault of their own- and that 'simplistic' solutions will not work. This is not being rude- but the plain truth.

My Grandmother was born in Nazareth. Her family goes back 100s years in the area. Her father was a doctor. She married an English soldier who was in Palestine at the end on WW1 and they set up home in Palestine. My father was born in 1921 and he , his sisters and brother grew up there. The family moved to Mt Carmel, Haifa. My dad went to school in Jerusalem and began to train as a lawyer. In 1947 all British were ordered to leave, 48 hour notice because of the terrorist actions of jews against the British. May grandmother had to leave her home and family. She & her family, over time, lost land, farms, homes, businesses to the formation of Israel. I948 does not feel that long ago nonnie when that has happened. Speak to my 89yr old aunt..it is fresh for her.
Before the advent of the policies of Zionism Jews, Christians and Muslims had co-existed in Palestine in relative harmony . My father had friends of all three religions and continued to do so all through his life. But he hated the Zionist government and policies.

There is an argument that says without Zionism there may not have been the rise of Islamism. Anyextreme right wing policies/religious groups are dangerous and I include the current Israeli government in that.

Aka - what I was referring to as a bit simplistic was your comment

it's 'historical' we all know that, but short of declaring the state of Israel nul and void, or totally wiping it out, then that is a situation that we have to live with. I think Israel would be prepared to settle for a peaceful solution, I doubt Hamas want peace

I meant that it was simplistic to say that we have to live with the situation as it is or wipe out Israel. I then suggested some of the possibilities that were neither accepting things as they are now or wiping out Israel. I am genuinely interested to know what your post meant - I can't really believe that you think Israel should be allowed to keep all it has illegally grabbed and the Palestinisns should just suck it up?

I think this subject is far too important to be making personal comments and it wasn't my intention - I thought I'd commented on the content of your post and I apologise if you didn't like what I said about bring simplistic - have I explained it any better now?. I won't respond to Mishap but I agree with granjura

It's complicated.......this link is very long but the article isn't and is worth reading. Too many people on this thread with closed minds (not you, Penstemmon) theconversation.com/israels-message-to-palestinians-and-the-world-the-rockets-stop-or-we-wont-29720?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Latest+from+The+Conversation+for+28+July+2014+-+1813&utm_content=Latest+from+The+Conversation+for+28+July+2014+-+1813+CID_56cfbb8692ae2dd2ccb3ef7f741b661d&utm_source=campaign_monitor_uk&utm_term=Israels%20message%20to%20Palestinians%20and%20the%20world%20the%20rockets%20stop%20%20or%20we%20wont