How many dead Palestinians ....

Aka - that's a bit simplistic surely. It's not about wiping out Israel and going back to pre-1948. A good start would be no more settlements ( and that must include no more expansion of existing settlements as that is one tactic Israel uses and then tells the world innocent face that they haven't built a new settlement ) and a planned dismantling of all West Bank settlements since some agreed date. Morally, Israel should go back to its pre-1967 birders but in my wildest dreams I can't see that happening. Then something would have to be done about the blockade of Gaza and international help with reconstruction. If the Gazans saw movement like that, then it would impact hugely on their support for Hamas. What won't work is a 'let's start from now' scenario where Israel is allowed to keep absolutely everything it has illegally grabbed. If Hamas, and I know it won't happen, agreed to surrender all its weapons and fill all its tunnels, do you honestly think that Israel would voluntarily surrender anything? They have a wicked, wicked racist government who are hell bent on annihilating the Palestinians and therefore no better than Hamas and its desire to do the same to Israel

It is always the ordinary people who get caught in the middle. rdinary people do not set out to cause wars.

The famous Christmas football match during the first world war is ample demonstration of this - and I am sure that there are many ordinary Palestinians and Israelis who live happily together as neighbours.

Political leaders' and terrorist organisations' posturing and brinkmanship is what leads us into this mess. It will never change.

There has been a suggestion in some parts of the media that the peace proposals made by the Israelis to Hamas were insincere and tailored so that they were likely to be refused. Israel could then justify embarking on their current course of action.

We all know this kind of thing goes on in any war.

It's hard to know what to believe.

Israel has, foolishly, played right into the hands of Hamas. Now all public opinion is against Israel. Hamas is as evil as any other extreme Islamist sect.

It's the ordinary people of Gaza who are caught in the middle.

I am not supporting Israel, let me make that clear, but neither am I naive enough to think that Hamas is just defending Gaza. If you read their own Charter you will see their true aim.

If this was all one sided then the issue would not be so difficult to solve. Yes, it's 'historical' we all know that, but short of declaring the state of Israel nul and void, or totally wiping it out, then that is a situation that we have to live with. I think Israel would be prepared to settle for a peaceful solution, I doubt Hamas want peace.

Attacks on Jewish people and synagogues in Europe play right into the hands of the Israelis ..... critics of the Israeli government/army begin to back-off, for fear of being accused of anti-semitism.

As an aside, I'm always curious as to why everyone plays along with the naming of the Israeli army as the 'Israeli Defence Force'.

Israel has an army - like most other countries.

https://news.vice.com/article/israel-is-holding-even-more-palestinian-children-in-solitary-for-throwing-rocks

And this ^^

Excellent post Eloethan.

The Israelis are ruthlessly targeting hospitals, schools and even a building where Palestinians who had left their homes were sheltering. They are choosing to carry out this course of action, in their own interests, and are therefore responsible for it in my view.

We have a situation where, for people to (possibly) be safe, hospitals would have to be evacuated, schools shut down and families leave their homes. Where would they all go?

www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/07/16/371556/israel-must-kill-all-palestinian-mothers/

This ^^

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-11807152

Joan- I don't know where to begin in response - but for starters, use of human shields , see above for an example. When the UN school was attacked, people were in the process of leaving but despite knowing this, the Israelis attacked. The little boys on the beach - can you explain that? They were running away when they were killed. I'm no apologist for Hamas, far from it, but the Palestinians were treated appallingly by the west in 1947/48 and that's where the roots of all this are with all the land grabs ever since.,can you defend the growth in settlements in the West Bank - even the Americans sometimes feebly criticise that. What about the wall - it could have been built on Israeli land but as well as being built for security, it was used as another way to humiliate and punish ordinary Palestinians. What about the hundreds of Palestinian children in Israeli jails - and as for spewing out hatred, the far right in Israel do a very effective job- that woman MP in particular.

Joan It is hardly surprising that if people's land and homes are taken from them, there is a deep-seated resentment.

Most people whose lives are torn apart by violence want peace and are willing to compromise - as happened eventually in Ireland. There are those that will never accept a compromise (as we have seen in Ireland), but I feel they are in the minority. Hamas no doubt has its share of people who will never accept the existence of Israel, but if the majority of people of Palestine could see that genuine efforts were being made to reach a point where they are treated fairly and the land that has been encroached upon is returned to them, I feel the support for Hamas would dwindle.

The situation in which Palestinians find themselves is absolutely intolerable and when people are powerless and have little to live for, they will take desperate - and, in the case of Hamas firing rockets, seemingly pointless - measures. They see Israel being bankrolled by the US, despite it having ignored so many UN resolutions, and the land "allocated" to them growing smaller and smaller, with their freedom of movement and access to everyday requirements being blocked. And countless times they have seen the UN do nothing to hold Israel to account.

Hamas does fire rockets at Israel but Israel has a very sophisticated shield provided by the US. The facts speak for themselves - over 1,000 Palestinians have been killed (most of whom were civilians), with thousands more injured and their homes reduced to rubble. Around 38 Israeli military personnel and two civilians have been killed.

If it is true that Hamas uses human shields and prevents people leaving buildings that are targeted, why on earth would Palestinians support such an organisation?

Undoubtedly there are people who are using this opportunity to stir up hatred against all Jewish people. That does not mean that everyone who deplores Israel's behaviour, is anti-Semitic. Lots of Jewish people outside of Israel also deplore its behaviour, and some courageous Israelis have campaigned tirelessly for justice for the Palestinians.

Here's a view from the Jewish perspective, though I cannot find a fact I am able to dispute:
www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/opinion/hamas-is-killing-its-own/story-e6frgd0x-1226997934042

Hamas has the declared aim, in its constitution, for the destruction of Israel.

Hamas deliberately uses human shields by putting its weaponry and launching pads in schools, hospitals and homes.

Hamas often orders people in these buildings to stay put.

Hamas continues to fire weapons at Israel, and civilian targets. The Israelis protect their people though, and stop many rockets. No Israeli military commander would ever use human shields. Israelis have many bomb shelters which prevent most civilian casualties

At the formation of Israel in 1948, the then Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, who had spent much of WW2 as a guest of Nazi Germany constantly exhorting Hitler to kill more Jews, was the leader of the Palestinians. Thus there was no hope of peace from the very beginnings.

Having said that, the Israelis need to pull their horns in too, and try other ways of dealing with this. Meanwhile Hamas itself is guilty of most of the civilian deaths, because of their violently inhumane use of human shields.

Anti semitism, not just anti-zionism is on the rise in Europe, thus making the protection of a Jewish homeland even more imperative.

I've spent the evening watching interviews of Edwin Black, an American Jew who wrote the Tranfer Agreement in 1984. Mind-boggling and I feel so incredibly naïve for not having heard about it before.

I agree with Brenda ( and others), despairing about any criticism of Israel's actions being shouted down as anti Semitism. This is not true, certainly not in my case and is disingenuous. To a certain extent, I an sympathise with Israeli Jews who were born there and have had to live with hostile neighbours all their lives, but sadly the most vociferous seem to be almost professional Zionists, people born elsewhere who have chosen to live in Israel. They are partly responsible for the illegal land grabbing due to the housing demands and are the loudest when it comes to accusing those who do not agree with their policies of aggression. Greg Dyke said the same thing on Any Questions on Radio 4 yesterday. To be honest, like the LibDem MP said, if I lived in Palestine, I would fire rockets. It has made us all take notice.

Yes many a vote for Hamas was a vote of screaming despair

If Israel had not continued to make land-grabs of Palestinian land on the West Bank, depriving farmers of their livelihood and if they had not penned Palestinians in Gaza, Hamas might not have had the clout with the voters which they had at the last election. There are other more moderate parties but the Palestinians have been pushed into the arms of Hamas by the bully-boy tactics of Israel. And I am not anti-semitic. Far from it.

But Aka - it isn't just about now and the present situation - both sides are not as bad as each other. The Israelis have broken international law for decades and the west lets them get away with it and they have vastly superior force which the USA bankrolls. If the money was threatened and the western governments spoke out, then maybe, only maybe, the Israeli government might have to consider negotiating - just stopping any more land grab would be a start.

I too feel very despondent about whether there can ever be a satisfactory solution. I feel it because of the way that Israel was set up in the first place & the way Palestinians were forced off their land, herded into a small strip of land that is Gaza, never allowed to return to their place of birth & denied a decent livelihood, medicines etc. Any country has the right to defend it's borders but Israel's borders encompass land which should have been given back long ago & were provocatively settled by Israelis while again subjugating the Palestinian residents. Defending them by massacre is a dreadful crime against humanity. I have old colleagues who live in Israel & when I visited them I could understand the fear of Israelis in such a small country surrounded by States that did not think they had a right to exist & were being attacked regularly at that time. I have a young friend from Gaza whose family are in grave danger & I have heard from him about the deprivations his family have suffered since his father was forced to leave his home when Israel was set up. His English wife has been helping Palestinians in very practical ways since studying the situation at University. She organized groups of volunteers to help Palestinians in the West Bank to harvest their olives, produce & market their Olive Oil & other products which are now sold by her not-for-profit company (Zaytoun) in Fair Trade shops & Oxfam here. The volunteers have a hard time getting in & out of the West Bank. In both Israel & Gaza there are extremists who seem to be escalating the situation & it's a complex situation with Hamas & why they have lost supporters in neighbouring countries. What is happening is wrong, wrong, wrong. But short-term cease-fires & peace agreements are never going to solve such a long & complex scenario which has come out of a very bad birth.

GrannyTwice- you've said it much better than I could have- thank you.

An amazing Palestinian Diplomat was interviewed on French TV and his reply was so well put- the Palestinians have little choice. Not only was the majority of their land taken away and given to another people- but what little they have left is now occupied, the farmland destroyed, their homes and cities, their children bombed and killed, day in, day out. A prison- and a prison where the civilian poplulation is shot and bombed.

I liked this from his reply:

Just because Slaves revolt against Slavery- does that make Slavery right?

Hamas is NOT defending Gaza.

Agreed. Both sides are as bad as each other. Hamas exists for one declared purpose only, the total destruction of the state of Isreal. Of course they are completely delusional as their rockets rarely find a target thanks to tne superior defences of Isreal. Whereas the superior weaponry of Isreal is bringing death and destruction to the people of Gaza.

Neither side cares about the innocents caught literally in the crossfire.

Why would they speak out against Hamas? They are the only people defending Gaza!

I'm not a pacifist - if living under illegal occupation in dreadful siege conditions, I too would fight back with rockets.

Would the British have meekly accepted German occupation if WW2 had turned out differently?

Aka - of course there is a huge issue with Hamas. But if Israel were treated differently by the West - for example if the UN resolutions were enforced, if the west spoke out about the illegal and expanding settlements, if the west had spoken out about the building of the wall and the destruction it caused to Palestinian homes, communities and livelihoods, then perhaps the people of Gaza might feel they had options to Hamas - a less extreme party might gain power . And what about Israelis - 80% in favour of the current action, taking armchairs and popcorn up onto a hill to watch the bombardment. We in the west have brought all this about - what we did in 1948 was a crime against humanity and we've compounded it ever since. Gaza is basically a prison.

Hamas are not blameless in this either. While I agree with most that is posted on here we also need to hear most Gazeans speak out against Hamas.

Brenda I had to have a wry smile , [not against you].

I Remember posting the same as you, some months back , about the Jewish lobby being strong in the USA

one particular poster who is no longer on this forum accused me of racism and reported me to G/N.

How things have changed !