How many dead Palestinians ....

Other villains - us, the US, other Arab States, the UN , the EU - take your pick

Lily- I really don't see Israel as the sole villain and my judgement isn't clouded by seeing the terrible pictures on the news. For years now, even during the periods of relative ' peace' I've been critical of Israel. It isn't just about the current situation - it's been the expansion of the settlements in the West Bank and the building of the security wall on Palestinisn land, the imprisoning of hundreds of Palestinian children - yes children - and their brazen flouting on UN resolutions plus their blockade - especially with medical supplies. We can't see the whole picture without the historical context.

That's a very valid point, Penstemmon. When I spoke of the blockade it was to try to make the argument that Hamas is a force to be reckoned with and is treated as an enemy by Egypt as well as Israel.

Very interesting response GrannyTwice. Perhaps you haven't read the forum rules about attacking the post, rather than the poster?
People want to make contributions to this thread, but are put off when it turns personnel, so no, I won't 'butt out' because I am sick and tired of some people trying to shout down other people's contributions. If you find that annoying then hard luck. Everyone has the right to express their opinions about the subject matter, even if they are in the minority

As for the accusation that I 'can never resist having a go' at you, well that's a very odd thing to say. What on earth do you mean? I doubt anyone ekse reading my post would not have out that construction on it. In fact I thought I expressed myself in very moderate terms, unlike your outburst reply.

Thanks to Galen and to Penstommon for their posts.

This subject is polarising so many people on gn, and in general isn't it. I wish I had something more constructive to say

Lilygran hear what you are saying.... 'Israel allowed Palestinians out' they should not be blockaded in! No thanks or praise deserved for that.

I always think it funny that non-Arab people think that all Arabs w/should be supportive of each other. We are in the process of remembering a huge European war when European Christians fought each other. All Arabs are not the same, all Muslims are not the same. Nazi's were 'Christian' and European. Politics is the issue, religion /race is the excuse.

I'm not attacking Egypt! I want to make the point that given the state of the Arab world and the assessment of Hamas as terrorists, it is biased to choose Israel as the sole villain in this. I think Israel has made a tragic mistake in adopting the present strategy and I deplore the many deaths which have resulted. But, unlike some posters, I want to understand the whole picture. It is dreadful to see injured and dead children on the television news and I'm prepared to believe this clouds people's judgment.

Lily - what do you think Egypt should do? Hamas has hardly any 'friends' anywhere ( I can understand that) but Egypt can't possibly be a help to either side- it's such a flaky basket case itself

No apologies from me Galen - I wasn't trying to derail a serious thread by impenetrable sarcasm or then taking sides in a spat that was nothing to do with me. I'd like to get back to the subject of the OP

Ladies please. There's enough strife around already

Whereas of course Aka your post is very helpful - just butt out, I was talking to Lilygran- she admitted to sarcasm which I had not understood and I said it wasn't helpful which it wasn't - what's it to you? You just can never resist having a go at me can you -how about a meaningful contribution to the serious subject matter of this thread rather than another go at me?

The 'cut and thrust' of debate is not helped by attacking the poster G2. Your reply to Lilygran could have stood on its own without the first sentence.

Except their own population?

Will that was very helpful Lilygran - totally unnecessary to be sarcastic - you could have explained it properly the first time. There's no point criticising Egypt - they haven't land grabbed, they are not killing hundreds of innocents. And politically, of course they won't let any Gazans in

Yes, it was sarcasm. Israel is castigated for not opening borders to a regime whose declared intention is to destroy the state of Israel. I haven't seen a mention of Egypt's response to having the same terrorist government next door. Except on the World Service the other day when a reporter mentioned in passing that the Israelis had allowed a large number of Palestinians out of Gaza on humanitarian grounds before the war started and that 15,000 Palestinians were waiting for visas into Egypt.

That was addressed to Lilygran btw

I don't understand your point - you asked originally why Egypt didn't open its border with Gaza - were you bring ironic? I'm completely

Every analysis of the situation that I have read sees no solution.

The arming of Israel by the US (and Britain?) is guaranteed to increase terrorism towards the west.

Sorry, GrannyTwice. Egypt won't open the border to Palestinians because they (Hamas) 'are seen as supporters of the Muslim Brotherhood who the current Egyptian government are executing and imprisoning in large numbers'. And who are daily sending missiles into Israel and infiltrating both Egypt and Israel through many large tunnels.

Civil war's OK, then?

Syria, Iraq and Libya are completely different situations - they are in effect civil wars; North Korea comes in for a lot of criticism and UN sanctions; and Russia is facing EU & UN sanctions because of Ukraine.

Israel is supposedly the bastion of Western values in the Middle East and right now is subjected to deserved venom in my opinion for bombarding people who are are already under illegal occupation and have been for decades.

What's the death toll so far, 1500 plus?

And we know full well that the Israelis will get away with it, that's why people are enraged.

The sheer hypocrisy of the UN and the US makes me sick.

Yes granjura - looks like a bit of either irrelevance or derailing - neither of which is helpful with such a serious thread

Also, my very severe criticisms of Israel extend beyond Gaza as terrible as that is. The illegal settlements in the West Bank and the security wall which stole even more Palestinian land and destroyed communities and ruined livelihoods are part of why I am so critical of Israel.

so why say it thatbags- what has it got to do with it, really?

The coastline is blocked by Israel. Egypt blocks only the Rafah crossing and that's now because ( reasons have varied in the past) they will not do anything to help Hamas because they are seen as supporters of the Muslim Brotherhood who the current Egyptian government are executing and imprisoning in large numbers. So yes, the Gazans are imprisoned - I don't know what else it could be called