How many dead Palestinians ....

I can't agree that there is no good or bad side. Israeli crimes are now completely unforgivable, and they should be brought to justice at The Hague.

Why don't the Egyptians open their border with Gaza?

Lilygran - don't you understand the relationship between the Egyptian government and Hamas?

Maybe time to spare a thought for Sadat and Rabin.

Yes jingle- and the LIES they told about the soldier - they knew damn well he was dead but pretended he had been abducted to stir up more feeling - and go in even harder. But who will ever believe them again if they say a soldier has been kidnapped? Kerry must be furious - they made him look like a complete idiot. I actually think that Netanyahu is mad - seriously- is he trying to self destruct Israel?

Exactly Merlot - and who killed Rabin? A very very right wing Israeli - or as they are known today, the Israeli government

Arab (Christian & Muslim) and Jewish Palestinians h.ad lived in the area working and co-existing pre Zionism. It is this political policy that is the underlying issue that has caused this situation.

That Hamas uses civilians as human shields has been refuted by many of the charity (Unicef etc) workers for many years. It is possible that this is Israeli propaganda. The tunnels have be in existence for years and I do not believe, with all the sophisticated equipment at their disposal, that the Israeli forces are finding them hard to find. They need reasons to keep their onslaught going.
The accusation that Palestinians do not want to recognise the state of Israel may well be true for the political hardliners. Equally the current Israeli government does not want a State of Palestine to exist. Israel does not want peace. It wants to keep fighting as it knows it has the power to destroy Palestine completely. It also knows it has to do it bit by bit to keep Western Governments on side.
Make the Palestinians, the occupied & oppressed people, look like the aggressors through clever mediation and the world will support the occupying and oppressive forces. Too painful and too sad. I cannot contribute to this anymore.

Could it possibly be that the US is encouraging this war - and others in the Middle East - to distract all the various Muslim extremist groups? While they're attacking and killing each other, they're leaving the west alone.
Or am I just a cynical old f**t.

NFK Probably not, as the various Muslim extremist groups are often at loggerheads with each other. Isn't Hamas Shia and supported by Iran? If so, no Sunni group or Al Qaeda would support them with a bargepole.

There is a US election coming up in the near future and although Obama cannot stand for a third term, the Democrats will still be fielding a candidate. Apart from a strong and vociferous Jewish lobby, there is also a powerful evangelical Christian lobby. Many of the latter genuinely believe that the Rapture (when they will all be transported instantly to heaven) cannot come until the biblical Holy Land is fully restored to Israel. Their concern is not for Israel or Jews but for Zionism as a step on their inevitable path to eternal life.

I think that's quite a reasonable supposition, nfk. But there was (and no doubt will be for a while) internicene war between muslim sects anyway.

If the idea that the actions of the Israeli government will destroy Israel is true it implies the Israeli government is bonkers because it hardly seems in their interest to do that. Perhaps they are (bonkers). Would the destruction of Israel be a good thing?

Or, to put it another way, Muslims kill and maim more Muslims than any other group does.

Everyone seems to have forgotten that.

Doesn't justify unlawful killing by any other group though. Not saying it does.

Just look at what is happening in Syria, Iraq, Libya and a number of countries in Africa, to say nothing of Ukraine, North Korea. Could go on and on and as bags says, this doesn't justify what's happening in Gaza. BUT why is all the venom directed at Israel? No, GrannyTwice, I don't understand. Why is the Israel/Gaza blockade described in terms of imprisonment when there is a long coastline and another border with Egypt, equally closed to Palestinians?

The coastline is blocked by Israel. Egypt blocks only the Rafah crossing and that's now because ( reasons have varied in the past) they will not do anything to help Hamas because they are seen as supporters of the Muslim Brotherhood who the current Egyptian government are executing and imprisoning in large numbers. So yes, the Gazans are imprisoned - I don't know what else it could be called

so why say it thatbags- what has it got to do with it, really?

Also, my very severe criticisms of Israel extend beyond Gaza as terrible as that is. The illegal settlements in the West Bank and the security wall which stole even more Palestinian land and destroyed communities and ruined livelihoods are part of why I am so critical of Israel.

Yes granjura - looks like a bit of either irrelevance or derailing - neither of which is helpful with such a serious thread

Syria, Iraq and Libya are completely different situations - they are in effect civil wars; North Korea comes in for a lot of criticism and UN sanctions; and Russia is facing EU & UN sanctions because of Ukraine.

Israel is supposedly the bastion of Western values in the Middle East and right now is subjected to deserved venom in my opinion for bombarding people who are are already under illegal occupation and have been for decades.

What's the death toll so far, 1500 plus?

And we know full well that the Israelis will get away with it, that's why people are enraged.

The sheer hypocrisy of the UN and the US makes me sick.

Civil war's OK, then?

Sorry, GrannyTwice. Egypt won't open the border to Palestinians because they (Hamas) 'are seen as supporters of the Muslim Brotherhood who the current Egyptian government are executing and imprisoning in large numbers'. And who are daily sending missiles into Israel and infiltrating both Egypt and Israel through many large tunnels.

Every analysis of the situation that I have read sees no solution.

The arming of Israel by the US (and Britain?) is guaranteed to increase terrorism towards the west.

I don't understand your point - you asked originally why Egypt didn't open its border with Gaza - were you bring ironic? I'm completely

That was addressed to Lilygran btw

Yes, it was sarcasm. Israel is castigated for not opening borders to a regime whose declared intention is to destroy the state of Israel. I haven't seen a mention of Egypt's response to having the same terrorist government next door. Except on the World Service the other day when a reporter mentioned in passing that the Israelis had allowed a large number of Palestinians out of Gaza on humanitarian grounds before the war started and that 15,000 Palestinians were waiting for visas into Egypt.

Will that was very helpful Lilygran - totally unnecessary to be sarcastic - you could have explained it properly the first time. There's no point criticising Egypt - they haven't land grabbed, they are not killing hundreds of innocents. And politically, of course they won't let any Gazans in