How many dead Palestinians ....

Except their own population?

The 'cut and thrust' of debate is not helped by attacking the poster G2. Your reply to Lilygran could have stood on its own without the first sentence.

Whereas of course Aka your post is very helpful - just butt out, I was talking to Lilygran- she admitted to sarcasm which I had not understood and I said it wasn't helpful which it wasn't - what's it to you? You just can never resist having a go at me can you -how about a meaningful contribution to the serious subject matter of this thread rather than another go at me?

Ladies please. There's enough strife around already

No apologies from me Galen - I wasn't trying to derail a serious thread by impenetrable sarcasm or then taking sides in a spat that was nothing to do with me. I'd like to get back to the subject of the OP

Lily - what do you think Egypt should do? Hamas has hardly any 'friends' anywhere ( I can understand that) but Egypt can't possibly be a help to either side- it's such a flaky basket case itself

I'm not attacking Egypt! I want to make the point that given the state of the Arab world and the assessment of Hamas as terrorists, it is biased to choose Israel as the sole villain in this. I think Israel has made a tragic mistake in adopting the present strategy and I deplore the many deaths which have resulted. But, unlike some posters, I want to understand the whole picture. It is dreadful to see injured and dead children on the television news and I'm prepared to believe this clouds people's judgment.

Lilygran hear what you are saying.... 'Israel allowed Palestinians out' they should not be blockaded in! No thanks or praise deserved for that.

I always think it funny that non-Arab people think that all Arabs w/should be supportive of each other. We are in the process of remembering a huge European war when European Christians fought each other. All Arabs are not the same, all Muslims are not the same. Nazi's were 'Christian' and European. Politics is the issue, religion /race is the excuse.

Thanks to Galen and to Penstommon for their posts.

This subject is polarising so many people on gn, and in general isn't it. I wish I had something more constructive to say

Very interesting response GrannyTwice. Perhaps you haven't read the forum rules about attacking the post, rather than the poster?
People want to make contributions to this thread, but are put off when it turns personnel, so no, I won't 'butt out' because I am sick and tired of some people trying to shout down other people's contributions. If you find that annoying then hard luck. Everyone has the right to express their opinions about the subject matter, even if they are in the minority

As for the accusation that I 'can never resist having a go' at you, well that's a very odd thing to say. What on earth do you mean? I doubt anyone ekse reading my post would not have out that construction on it. In fact I thought I expressed myself in very moderate terms, unlike your outburst reply.

That's a very valid point, Penstemmon. When I spoke of the blockade it was to try to make the argument that Hamas is a force to be reckoned with and is treated as an enemy by Egypt as well as Israel.

Lily- I really don't see Israel as the sole villain and my judgement isn't clouded by seeing the terrible pictures on the news. For years now, even during the periods of relative ' peace' I've been critical of Israel. It isn't just about the current situation - it's been the expansion of the settlements in the West Bank and the building of the security wall on Palestinisn land, the imprisoning of hundreds of Palestinian children - yes children - and their brazen flouting on UN resolutions plus their blockade - especially with medical supplies. We can't see the whole picture without the historical context.

Other villains - us, the US, other Arab States, the UN , the EU - take your pick

www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/04/gaza-israel-hamas-ceasefire-agreement-egypt Perhaps there is a glimmer of hope...]]

I am reminded of Leonard Cohen's lyrics to "Anthem".

Even if this holds, we've been here before so many, many times and after the cessation of each bout of hostilities, nothing changes, except the living conditions of the Gazans which are always worse than before. Of course it will be positive if the killing stops but the problems remain as entrenched as ever and I see no one on the international stage capable of brokering any lasting solution. And don't even mention TB.....it's just despairing isn't it?

Sorry ffin- I know it's better to have the ceasefire than not - it's just the thought of the longer term

I do hope this is the start of something better. Thanks, ffinocchio.

Yes, thanks, ffinn.

There will never be a lasting solution until either Israel is obliterated or until the countries surrounding it accept that Isreal is a nation state. Sorry to pour cold water on a glimmer of hope but, sadly, I don't see either of those things happening any time soon.

What I found really depressing was an interview last night with a obviously intelligent young man who was going to teach his children that Israel was the enemy.
With this attitude on both sides there will never be peace.

But but but - trying to be optimistic and knowing it's a completely different situation, we spent years thinking there would never be peace in NI - and whilst it's not perfect, it's still quite amazing what was achieved - TB and MM did deliver that.

I agree, Galen. I also saw an interview with a distraught mother of a dead child. Her statement that they would have many more babies to grow up and kill Israelis was chilling and depressing.

Thanks for that link ffinn I'd like to hope that this really does herald an end to the killing for now at least.
Galen it really is the 'politics of hate' that I find so depressing too. You are right, with these attitudes how can there ever be a lasting solution.

Actions change attitudes - but where are the meaningful actions to come from? Bill Clinton once got involved in this area but he seems to be off the international stage now - and also the US don't really have any credibility because of their support for Israel.

Looked another way, GT, attitudes can change actions. Yet I feel the long term prognosis for any kind of resolution is extremely fragile.

And yet if hope completely fades away, there won't be change.

For the moment, the killing has stopped. I'm thankful for that.

Obama has just approved $225m grant for further Iron Dome funding.

Varsi has resigned on principle. Good for her.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-28656874