Grandson visiting for Christmas

exactly rose quartz - simples!

Just what I was trying to say in my own unprofessional and blundering way.

Absolutely agree.

Isn't it Soutra

How nice to have homegrown common.sense endorsed by a professional

Hear, hear to granjura's friend.

I've e-mailed a friend who is a trainer and expert on dog behaviour, and has several dogs herself to whom she is totally dedicated- to see if perhaps my response was too cautious. And here is her reply:

I am of the opinion that one must never put a dog in a position that he might not be able to handle. It simply isn't fair - not to the child, not to the adults, and certainly not to the dog. Because the dog will pay the price if, doG forbid, an adult takes his eyes off the ball.

It can be even more difficult with multiple dogs who do not normally live together, as the pack dynamics will take some adjusting. Even dogs who are normally good with children might be upset by the advent of outsider dogs into their territory. Tensions might rise in the ensuing adjustment period, and displacement can be a possibility.

I have also found that sometimes guest dog owners who themselves do not have problems with their own dogs have difficulty understanding that other dogs might not react as theirs do, and so do not understand the need for caution - making the situation even more fraught.

If the home can be managed with an iron-clad rule of adult supervision at all times of the dogs with each other as well as of the dogs with the baby with an absolute 'child-free' or 'dog-free' division of the area, then perhaps it will be fine. But if that sounds like less like a holiday and more like a prison... perhaps it would be best if holiday care for the dogs was found for the time the child is visiting.

I know that I would not put my own dogs in such a situation. And I certainly would not want to spend a holiday with that level of stress.

I am a dog owner and can see a number of serious issues with this scenario

- 3 dogs all strangers to each other - not a good idea. No-one knows how the dogs will react to each other. They may well be fine, and it would be very sensible to let them meet on neutral territory to get to know each other and to gauge how they will be together.

Nipping is NEVER acceptable under any circumstances FULL STOP.

Toddlers and new dogs should never mix, however gentle and laid back the dogs appear, at a temporary and unusual time (for the dogs) i.e. Christmas. Dog and toddler should only be introduced in a very controlled environment, at a time when both dog and toddler are relaxed and happy in a familiar environment

Saying all that we shall be 3 dogs and 2 children albeit the children are 10 and 14 and the dogs all "know" each other. BUT given the above scenario I would ask my sister to have my dog for the day and expect others to do the same, anything else is in my view irresponsible. Children are too precious to risk, and dogs will love the day away.

I would not be sending any dogs upstairs out of the way! We had a 2nd hand dog (a delight, I must say) who had been used to lying on the settee, going on the beds etc. But after a couple of weeks training with us he knew he was not allowed upstairs. DD used to want him upstairs to 'help' her open her Christmas stocking so he was allowed upstairs on Christmas morning, but he was never very happy up there!

Friends had a dog who 'just nipped' the DS on the face - it was quite a nasty nip and left a scar. DS was much older, so if he had been a baby it could have been much worse.

Personally, I could not stand having three dogs in the house at Christmas as well as a baby, I would be on tenterhooks the whole time and would not enjoy the holiday one bit.
The dogs don't know it's Christmas.

Ana exactly my thoughts! And I am fond of dogs.

yes, that is exactly what I meant.

I did have a look back myself at my posts, and could see that they were not as clear as I thought they were. So no worries

Sorry, soontobe, I think I got the wrong end of the stick there!

I suppose it's almost on a par with those dog owners who insist "He/she's only playing" when their out-of-control, off the lead dog leaps up and almost knocks someone over, terrifying them out of their wits in the process...

IF it was my scenario I would be asking baby's parents if they are happy with the fact that there will be 3 'strange to each other' dogs around plus their precious child. Really parents need to be taking some responsibility..it comes as part of the package of being a parent.
Is there a shed or out house where, after the long walk, 1/2 or 3 dogs could be?

No I dont think nipping is ok.
I thought I had made that very clear.

But a surprising number of dog owners do think that that is ok.

I agree, Soutra. As for your frequent mentions of 'nipping' soontobe, I'm not sure whether you're saying that 'nipping' is OK because it's not really biting, or what...

A nip to a baby's face could be very nasty indeed.

I really don't think you can apply theoretical probability or risk theory to this situation!! Common sense more like. The DGS's "own " dog is presumably ok with the baby but factor in another dog and it could get more complicated. Dogs can react very differently on their oen or with others when the "pack mentality" could come into play. Ifyou are not happy with 2 dogs and a baby then you have to put your foot down and say either "no" to the second dog or ensure a dog free zone. Frankly I am surprised how this thread has meandered on including going off at some odd tangents when it is really a no-brainer.

There are dogs and kids and toddlers everywhere around here, and its wondrful, I love it. But for me- what is described in this scenario is just too risky, and not worth it- especially as a trial run is not possible due to distance.

It is a pity that new2be has not come back with more information about the size, type/breed, sex and temperament of the dogs, and the configuration and size of the house- as it makes it even more difficult to evaluate.

What a difficult problem and without knowing the dogs involved, how difficult to advise. Years ago, I had 2 dogs and young teenagers, who all, when we had visiting tinies, used to take themselves off upstairs. One of the dogs would give me a let me know when they've gone look.

There was a thread on mumsnet recently where some dog owners could not see a problem with a dog nipping an 11 year old child.
They suggested that it was the dog's home, and that the child not visit.

That is why I mentioned nipping.
Some would see that as a problem, a few may not.

[am imagining the situation in the park!]

Depends on how you calculate the risk and what you define as something going wrong. How long is a piece of string? Last time something went wrong with my dog was when a 67 year old relative insisted on running across the park with my dog and fell over, letting go of her lead. We all rushed past him to catch her lead!

Maybe it all comes down to risk.
We all compute and deal with it differently.

Would people say that a 1 in 200 chance of this going wrong in some way is acceptable. Or not?

Unexpectedly, we had a visiting dog yesterday. A busy little 9 month old Norfolk Terrier, accompanied by my nephew, his wife and their grandchild, who is 18 months old. They called in because they'd heard my grandsons were here for tea. So we had a couple of noisy six year olds, two dogs and a toddler, all supervised by five adults. The kids and dogs had a great time, no-one got bit, and it all passed uneventfully.

Sad and unasked for comment really. A pity.

I am so glad those occasions with dogs and children passed well. But in my book, even if there is a shadow of a doubt, with a toddler- I would not take the chances. The fact the OP's OH is concerned says a lot for me.

I totally sincerely wish New2me a wonderful Christmas and find a way to make it work safely for all.

The OP obviously has a dog loving family, given that both of her children have dogs and, in that case, the dogs are as much part of the family as the children. Which doesn't mean to say that the baby should be put at risk in any way and that, when crawling around should have any dogs in the same room. But this is the first Christmas of many and there will be more situations where there are babies, children and dogs all in the same house [perhpas even having holidays together]. Best to get things sorted now in a way that keeps everyone happy and safe. I'd still like to know what breed the dogs are, though; it would make the situation much easier to understand. Chances are the baby will sleep for most of Christmas anyway and even when not sleeping will spend a lot of the time being cuddled, in a high chair etc. If they're using a travel cot that could be put downstairs as a temporary playpen [I'm still not advocating having the dogs in the same room, by the way]. If her other daughter is anything like I was her dog is her baby and she'd hate to be parted from it at Christmas. I think they're going to have a wonderful family get together [especially as the OP is so thoughtful and caring] and I'm quite envious already.