School phobia

Well on that sorry note I will go to bed feeling most of my working life has been a waste of time!

Not at all! - it is not the teachers, for whom I have the greatest respect, it is the system. Schools are too big, too regimented, too bound by targets, exams and rules that stifle true education. If some children cannot bear it, then they have my sympathy.

There are of course some rubbish teachers, as with any profession, but they are all being asked to do an impossible task.

I really do believe that schools are abnormal environments for children, and that rather than trying to mutate children into fitting in with the system we should ask that most basic of questions: what is this all intended to achieve? Schools as an educational model are so ingrained in our psyche that we often forget to ask that. I would be interested in your view on that question Penstemmon and whether you think schools are the best vehicle for achieving it.

One thing that worries me greatly is the problem that boys in particular have with the system as it stands, which favours girls in its teaching style, particularly at secondary school. Many boys cannot bear to be sitting at a desk or pouring over books - they need to be moving about.

It is such a waste for huge numbers of children to be using up their childhood and youth drifting through a system about which they feel half-hearted. I find the whole idea quite unbearable.

On the basis of your approach, Mishap, most adults don't truly enjoy work. We muddle through, and children learn to do the same at school. It's called life.

As it happens, I did enjoy school. Am I really in a minority?

In answer to your question Mishap the school strap line at the ast school where I worked full time was 'Happy Children, Successful Learners' and we all strove to achieve that.

No, you're not grumppa. I loved my primary school, and although I can't say I enjoyed every aspect of my Grammar School education, it was certainly preferable to my home life.

Not all children are forced into an abnormal environment against their will, mishap, some actually welcome the structure and discipline it instills.

One size doesn't fit all, of course.

The primary school of which I was chair of governors always struck me as a happy place. We had a low turnover of staff and the children appeared to find their teachers approachable and stimulating. Teachers went the extra mile to provide extra-curricular activities. The primary school where my GD (now 12) and GS (10) have been pupils has proved exceptionally stimulating and encouraged creativity. This is, I feel sure, standing GD in good stead in year 7.

I wasn't especially unhappy at school - although I certainly gained a lot more from some schools than others.

I think perhaps we are looking at the "problem" (and I accept that probably most people don't think there is a problem with schools) from the wrong end. It seems to me that the primary purpose of schools has not been to open minds to the wonders of learning but to churn out young people to suit the labour market. In fact, I believe that is why education for "the masses" was initially introduced (no doubt someone more knowledgeable will correct me).

I feel in some ways there was not so much rigidity when I was at school - teachers seemed to have more freedom to conduct lessons as they saw fit and not to be so constrained by mechanistic ways of preparing and delivering learning sessions - spending hours documenting what they are going to do, and then more hours documenting what they have done. On the other hand, there was far less opportunity for those who were not academic or who failed to show academic promise before the age of 11.

A great number of young people come out of school with not particularly fond memories of the experience, other than, if they're lucky, the forming of good friendships. Aside from a couple of good friends with whom I still keep in contact, what I primarily gained from school was a good grasp of English, a very basic grasp of arithmetic, and good speeds in shorthand and typing - not much to show for 10/11 years of education. What I did learn though was how to analyse information, put together a well constructed essay, express my views coherently and do everyday tasks like write a letter, address an envelope, etc. etc. I've forgotten most of the history, geography, biology, physics, etc., that I learned and I guess many people would say the same. Even with the responsibilities of family and work life, I learned more in later years than I ever learned at school.

As Mishap said, this is definitely not a criticism of teachers (I have very fond and appreciative memories of some of my teachers and great admiration for those who currently battle on despite the many challenges) but of the system.

I've always felt, and still do, that the real purpose of education (including schooling) is to teach people how to learn. That in turn helps people to be adaptive. In a fast changing world, that's useful.

It's not about the what but about the how.

As with most things, some people are better at it than others, just as some people are better at practical things than others, some are better at dealing with pernickety detail (which sometimes matters), and some are better at tasks that require good 'gross motor skills'.

I consider myself knowledgeable about education Eloethan but I won't be correcting you as much of what you posted is the truth. There has always been a debate about the purpose of education; whether it is to churn out young people with the skills society needs or education in its broader sense, as mentioned by Bags.

That debate continues today. Teachers are more constrained than ever by the confines and demands of the National Curriculum and all the unneccessay paperwork so your support of them is welcome.

I disliked the school environment and wasn't happy being at school. I was not particularly bright but worked really hard to keep up with other children in the class. It was always a dissapointment when after spending 3 hours or more on my homework I didn't get a very good mark but friends who had rushed something out in 20 mins got praise and good marks.

Teachers were a mix of good and bad. Some made the lessons interesting others seemed as bored as I was. Neither of my DC excelled at school, didn't do A levels and went down different paths but both now have good jobs. I too have a good job which I think relates more to the style of teaching which we had in my primary school rather than the way children are taught today.

I do endorse Eleothan's comment.... "It seems to me that the primary purpose of schools has not been to open minds to the wonders of learning but to churn out young people to suit the labour market." It is central to my concern. Education is such a political football - when my last DD was at secondary school, the country was in the grip of Thatcherism and cookery lessons became lessons in how to market a food "product" rather than how to enjoy cooking and make nourishing meals.

I am delighted that this discussion is broadening out into what the real purpose of education is. It is such an important question. Perhaps it should be a separate thread.

Interestingly the government has just brought out a new document based on a study of teacher's responses around the subject of what tasks they regard as burdensome and at the same time contributing nothing to children's education. It is very welcome, and interesting reading: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/workload-challenge-for-schools-government-response

I would be interested to hear the thoughts of ex-teachers on this document.

My 8year old GS is refusing to go to school. He fights and screams and has been dragged into school fighting all the way. Once there he sometimes goes to classes or sits in the school office. The school have tried to help but he has also fought the headteacher and my DD is at the end of her tether. He has had counselling via the school and GP but it hasn't helped. My DD has tried to talk to him calmly but he refuses to say anything. She has tried briibery and withdrawing treats but neither works. I'd appreciate any suggestions that I can pass on to my poor DD.

I'm so sorry to hear about your grandson FranieB. He sounds exactly like my son at that age. We tried forcing him, bribing him, and punishing him, just as you describe and none of it worked. The difficulty is that a child who is terrified of school - and it is sheer terror that makes a child behave in that way - is not open to reason or bribery, and in the end they start to see you as the 'enemy'. He probably can't explain the reasons very clearly - I know my son never could and even now at 25 he finds it difficult to say exactly how he felt at the time.

At the time we were going through this, it took someone outside the family to 'give us permission' to stop trying to force the issue. She advised us to tell our son that we were not going to make him go to school, but we were going to try to sort the problem out another way. To be honest, we never did manage to sort it out but I'm still glad we were able to 'take the problem away from him'. I think that the best chance of getting to the bottom of your grandson's problem with school lies in removing him, hopefully temporarily, and pursuing further assessment, home tuition, statementing if appropriate. Keep working with the school but take the burden away from the child.

It's a hard and lonely road, and I wish you all the luck in the world.

Yes - taking the problem away from the child is the right way forward.

The idea (that I think grumppa is propounding) that "real life" is boring and not particularly enjoyable. so let's get children used to it from the start is not one I can endorse. The more self confidence and imagination that can be fostered at a young age, the better they will be able to face life's challenges as adults with flair and strength.

FranieB - your poor wee GS - I do feel for you all. It really does sound as if his days are thoroughly miserable and that sitting in the office means he is not only unhappy but getting nothing whatsoever from being in school. What a perfectly dreadful situation. And everyone is trying to solve "his" problem." Stop trying to force the issue, as suggested above, is certainly the way forward. Why would anyone want this poor lad to waste his childhood years being miserable and afraid? A bit of TLC at home is what is needed - he can learn there too. Good luck to you all with this problem.

*FranieB8 you have my heartfelt sympathy. I went through the same thing with my youngest DS who also, at the age of 7, started to walk out of school when he was upset. We worked with a few people who were able to understand him. There was a support teacher who welcomed him in a morning, so that he didn't have to face the whole class straight away. He eventually had a very supportive class teacher who welcomed him and whom he trusted. We agreed that there would be a "place of safety" were he would go when he felt he couldn't cope. A couple of years later he was assessed as severely dyslexic something not picked up earlier because he was very bright. He never quite adjusted properly to school (and he still thinks they are awful places for kids) but he did manage to go to university and now has an MA. I hope you can work something out. Even if he hasn't any real idea what is wrong there may be a real and very genuine reason your DGS is behaving the way he is, try to find people in the school he really trusts, offer him somewhere he can go to feel safer (I worked in one school where a 'school refuser' disappeared under a table draped with a cloth when he couldn't cope) have a thorough assessment of him done and keep assuring him you love him anyway. I wish you all the best

Sorry about the name- forgot to use shift keyFranieB

Dyslexia was a factor with my son as well trisher and I agree it's always worth considering that there might be an underlying specific learning difficulty.

Mishap Thanks for the info about teachers and their workload. I occassionally like to read about my old profession. However remembering "outcomes" and "progress reports" reminds me of a Leavers assembly, when what one child remembered, from the whole year I taught him, was "the time she did the funny voices in 'George's Marvellous Medicine'". That's the problem with kids you can never be certain what will stay with them.

Thank you all so much for the advice. I'll pass it on to my DD. It's hard to know what goes on in these little heads.

Is his behaviour a sudden change or has he always been reluctant and this is an extension of his usual feelings about school? If it a sudden change then it could be related to a specific incident/person. It could be related to home or school. Some children do not want to leave parents if they are worried about them, e.g. illness/relationship issues or of course it could be another child/teacher at school.

If the school/family is able to work together they may be able to work out some home tutoring. a time away from the catalyst may help to identify the cause of the problem, which might or might not be school.

Than you Penstemmon. It's a repetition of behaviour from last autumn that has subddenly reappeared. It's half term this wek so hopefully he'll be ok when he goes back.