Hopeless dilemma

Don't worry petallus - I have disabled the feature whereby an email arrives about the message. I will look in the inbox now.

luckygirl I sent you an acknowledgement PM and now I wonder if it will lead to the same problem.

It's serious abuse. I would be tempted to let him know that any meddling with with DD's and SiL's business affairs will result in a phone call to the police.

What a monster.

Oh that's awful, almost assault by today's standards.

i hope your SIL and DD find a way, gradually, to change the balance of power between them and the FIL.

Is it really not possible for your SIL to have a word with his father?

Your DD is currently trapped.
If she isnt careful, she is going to end up like her mil around her fil.

Encourage your DD and sil to break free. Or further down the line, there are going to be bigger problems.
You need to be brave too.

I dont think that always being in the room is going to work long term.

We feel like this too.

Sorry - phone went and I left a sentence hanging. I think I was going to say I'd have murdered him!

It just gets worse. That man is an egocentric monster. All the more reason why the little boy should never be left with him. I think if my FiL had behaved that way I might have assaulted him m
I'm so sorry your DD is so poorly. Is it an identifiable 'bug'?

I have just returned from taking the children back after a day looking after them. DD is very slightly better and she has eaten two slices of toast - but her temp is still up.

However, she was still very upset about FIL and told me more of what happened. He apparently pinned the child under his arm and hit his bare backside - it doesn't bear thinking about. I can only support them in trying to deal with this situation. It is all so sad.

I think I'd be in bed with a temperature and vomiting if I had a DH away all summer and a FIL to whom we were in financial thrall who dropped in whenever and taunted my children. Change the locks for her if he has a key and let him know that's it's something incredibly infectious and dangerous to old men. I'm may sound frivolous ,I'm not,but get your GP to give you a name for "there's something nasty doing the rounds". Having to work in a family business is not always a good thing

I'm sorry not to have offered support earlier but juts caught up with this discussion. I have to say that I would agree with merlot. What a nasty man.

I would definitely restrict his access to the child and make sure they only have contact during family occasions when others are there. The poor child is probably scared of him now anyway.

As far as the business is concerned it might be a case of 'Least said, soonest mended' because nobody wants their livelihood put at risk which could have far reaching consequences but your DD and SiL can always create another agenda.....How to protect their business interests and steer them in a safer direction.

In some ways they have the upper hand because he's shown his true colours now and won't be trusted again.

He's clearly living in a bygone age, the b****rd

Luckygirl I can't help suspecting that because of SiL's family relationship with FiL, he's unable to view him in a detached and businesslike way.
You say FiL's business provides an essential element of SiL and DD's business.
So what would happen if FiL dropped dead tomorrow?
SiL and DD would have to find a way to run their business without him.

They would either have to negotiate with someone else in FiLs business who could carry on providing the service, or find another company who could do it.

Perhaps SiL and DD(maybe with suitable mentoring beforehand) could work out such possibilies, then approach FiL along the lines of 'we want to do some forward planning and we're considering the options available to us when you're no longer around.'

That might give FiL pause for thought.
Even if it doesn't, SiL and DD might start to feel a bit more in charge of their own destiny, which in turn would cause FiL to view them differently - as business partners who deserve respect, rather than children in his debt, which is how it appears at least to this outsider.

What a controlling bully. Like others, I was fuming as I read your account of his behaviour. It is just plain nasty to tease and goad a child so young - anyone knows a 3 year old hasn't yet developed the necessary social skills to deal with such behaviour.
More important, though, is that children learn by example, which is why it is incumbent upon all family members, and others who are in regular contact with little ones, to set a good example to them, so that they might grow up to be kind, thoughtful and responsible adults. Thank heavens your DD is not reliant upon this awful man for childcare, because your GS would be at real risk of growing into a bully himself - he's already worked out the kind of language his GF understands and retaliated by smacking him.
I really feel for you, luckygirl - it's hard enough on your DD and SiL to have to deal with this, but we grandparents feel so impotent. We can't just wade in and give these bullies a piece of our mind, no matter how desperately we would love to.
for you. (And I hope your new name turns out to be prophetic)

As I said way back on the thread the actual act of goading, teasing and encouraging aggression almost worries me more, than a slapped bottom.

I don't agree with slapping but I think a quick slap once in a while, (say in an urgent situation) is far more understandable than promoting play fighting.
What a lot of stress for your DD and Sil. You have had enough lately Luckgirl

It is heartening that so many of you don't seem to have any experience/understanding of this issue and think there is a solution. I am not so sure there is because I have experience of a man like that and you cannot simply get them to change or understand that their behaviour is wrong. Such men are blinkered and throw their weight and power around for whatever reason but cannot be challenged. That only leads to worse behaviour.

I wonder why the 3 yr old hit him? Has the smacking been going on for a while? Does the child think hitting is OK? Has there been any situation with the other child?

It is clear that the FiL will still be able to have contact with the child but it must always be supervised by someone other than the MiL who clearly won't intervene because of her relationship with FiL. I think that if play becomes too rough she will have to remove the child whatever FiL says or does and, just maybe, after a while he will ask why but I doubt it.

I play quite roughly with our 3 yr old gs but it is always with love and I seem to be the only one who gets hurt!

I wish them all the best of luck and hope they find a way through but I have no idea what would work.

Interesting GN - but at least there is music in the school, which is getting a bit sparse in some areas.

I do think that my GS is fine - he is a bit confused with Dad being away and Mum in bed ill, but is generally OK.

The principle that you do not hit people is one that my DD and SIL feel very strongly about and her boys have learned that very early - to have a relative and an adult do it is so very wrong. But I think that we are all more upset about it than the lad himself. It is such a betrayal of trust - and if he would do it when my DD is there, who knows what happens when she is not. They will make sure it is not possible again I am sure.

lg that's what I was trying to say but in a clumsy manner - that children are often more resilient than we think and adults take on things in the longer term "on behalf of the children" when the children have long moved on.

As an aside, I'm reading Gareth Malone's book "Choir" at the moment and he describes where he went to do his choir thing at a school where the children had never had any realistic feedback, had always been protected, and he wasn't able to get on with teaching them and when he brought in a respected colleague who gave them robust feedback, they fell apart. he then had a session with them where he discussed the situation and the feedback and they could eventually see that the value of the experience and move on.

It is complicated to explain why the business (which is my SIL's) is dependent on FIL.

There is no possibility of SIL not being away working in the summer, since his business stages massive events all around the country all summer and he has to be there. FIL owns another business which creates one of the major elements and attractions at these events, and without which they could not happen.

It is difficult to find a way of resolving it at the moment, as SIL is away and my DD is ill - vomiting, temperature etc - and we are looking after the children, getting them to school etc. No chance of thinking logically at the moment!

The only positive thing in all this is that the wee lad himself seems none the worse for the experience at the moment. He is sitting by me as I type and happily watching the Gruffalo.

FIL and MIL live nearer (very near - too near!) my DD and her OH than we do, and FIL just drops in ad lib and throws his weight about there.

My DD has worked very hard to keep relationships sweet and avoid any rift in the family, and I think that is something that makes this situation so very hard for her, as she is so disappointed that it has all gone pear-shaped after all her efforts.

Her (and my SIL's) first priority is to keep the children safe and I know that they will be taking any necessary steps to this end.

I think that one of the posters her was quite right to say that FIL will see no problem with what he did; but he must have got the message that DD was unhappy as she scooped her lad away and left the room without speaking to him.

I am grateful to you all for your kind advice.

I know its awful but there are surprisingly many men of that generation who quite seriously would see no wrong in smacking a small child's bottom. Changing that perception will be extremely difficult for some and might be impossible for others. Pretend you're him, what might he be thinking? What sorts of approaches might he expect? If you're wanting (rightly) to change his behaviour you'll have to act smart rather than vindictive. Probably best just to keep DGS away from him. However he needs to change for many reasons not least the increasing likelihood of his losing his family. No easy answers.

Yes, the smacking incident seems to be part of a much larger, well established problem.

The whole family seems to regard FIL as someone who cannot be challenged whatever he does. I can understand this with the MIL and your SIL who grew up with him.

This is a bit fanciful maybe, but I'll say it anyway, FIL seems to be viewed a bit like the God of the Old Testament, flawed, capricious, fearsome and all powerful. Ha!

Try not to go along with it all because it seems to be getting to you too. You might manage to put things into perspective and calm the situation down a bit. It was four smacks on the bum and he probably loves his GS. His GS may even love him.

I agree with others that it would be good if your SIL and DD could at least explore other forms of employment. Maybe find out what their legal position is re the family business.

Finally, don't say anything to FIL yourself.

Very upsetting, Luckygirl.
Following on from Jane's sensible post, it does seem that your son in law is the person who should be stepping forward first to defend his small son.
You say he's away all summer, but really that's not good enough. If it's on business, things need to change on that front too.

Lucky girl he sounds very like my ex, a bully in charge of the purse strings! My ds was in the business with him and the bullying caused a lot of marital problems. My ds finally severed all ties with his father but it was very upsetting for him to 'lose' his dad.
I agree with janeainsworth, the best solution would be to become financially independent of this nasty man.

The fil is bullying his son. This will do nothing at all for his self esteem. Even if he doesnt show it now.
Working in a business set up like he is doing, gives him lots of transferrable skills.

The Fil sounds like a REALLY nasty bully.

I had a similar Fil but fortunately he had no power over us so I kept contact to a minimum. My Fil had the crazy idea that rough play etc., would make sons and grandsons man up. It doesn't work like that. My OH was terrified of his dad.

I did stand up to my Fil but as I've said he had no power over me. It is so difficult for you Luckygirl. Keep being there for your daughter, she will probably know what to do - mums are good like that and she will probably work something out with her OH. I feel ashamed that the Fil is probably the same generation as me.