4 yr olds unkind behaviour

so when a little toe rag at nursery hits my little darling he doesn't really mean it then ?
Is he so absorbed in his play that he hits her to get her out of his way.
I find that hard to accept.

Is DD wrong to tell her off for hitting others such as throwing her toys at ggran, flicking paint down my good curtains, throwing food etc etc. I know telling them off doesn't always sink in but I thought that with repetition it would .

No he doesn't mean it in the way an adult would but that doesn't make it OK. He still needs to face consequences so that he learns not to repeat the behaviour.

Yes your DD is right. She should get her child to sit down and listen, explain why what she did was wrong, that she makes gran sad when she does things like that, and finally DGD should apologise to you.

When my 2yo GS pokes his elder brother repeatedly while elder bro is absorbed with a TV programme, 2yo knows fine that what he's doing is wrong and annoying. My way of dealing with it (and the child's parents') is to tell him to stop it and if he doesn't to move him away from his brother.

Children need to start learning from a very early age what is unacceptable behaviour, and they can.

As my father put it once when I held back from showing my anger at DD when she was about two: "If you are angry, she needs to know". How else will they learn what is socially acceptable behaviour and what isn't?

You are not abusing them by teaching them such things in a straightforward, no nonsense way.

It wouldn't do to have a kid grow up simply not knowing the kind of behaviour that makes other people angry. There'd be a serious risk of them getting hit or worse when they were older.

Of course we need to teach them what's right and what's wrong from an early age. And teach them practical examples of good behaviour.
But my point was, they won't understand why until later, apart from doing something wrong sometimes leads to punishment.
As a toddler our eldest was eating something nice, a big bully came and grabbed it off him, so son landed a punch on his mouth
I've just remembered the "why" phase - they keep asking "why" but don't know what it really means, apart from keeping the attention of the adult.

Sorry but I think this is unacceptable behaviour, the child is clearly not responsible enough to handle a bike. Never mind empathy, almost four is old enough to know that you do not ride at another person. At two and three my GC would come and hug you if you bumped yourself and ask if you were alright.

I think Mother's instinct is not necessarily wrong. If she is worried she could know a lot more than you have said here.

Does he go to nursery? I suspect not or the nursery would have been dealing with this behaviour if it is ongoing. Maybe he should?

My experience of little boys is that they do know what is right and what is wrong much earlier than 4. Perhaps your DD could have a chat with her health visitor to get a dispassionate opinion. We are not qualified (some might be but I'm not!)

Yes merlotgran that is the other thing - I should have remembered it!

Take the bike away from him and tell him he is not allowed it back until he learns that it is to be used for riding, not as a weapon. If he does it again, then take the bike away again. He should learn cause and effect.

I think, however young they are they should be encouraged to see the results of their actions, apologise and help to put it right, eg help clean the paint off your curtains, ethel

that she makes gran sad when she does things like that
I'm not sure about that; when the DGC were young I had a lovely friend whose older boy was very naughty and a bit of a bully around younger children. He was about 4 and his mummy used to say to him 'if you knew how much that upset mummy you wouldn't do it J'. But of course he knew exactly what would wind mummy up and would do it even more - with a gleam in his eye. His mummy was just too nice!

I really don't want to comment too much on the incident as there are so many things that could have been the reason for your DGS's behaviour. I would say that he does need to learn about being hurt and causing hurt, but I would also say that children learn best about these things by example. Children who get lots of hugs and love tend to behave in a similar way to others. I am not suggesting your DGS isn't but I don't like the posts on here that seem to think he must be strongly reprimanded for his behaviour. He should be told it isn't the way you would like him to behave and then forgotten. I always like this poem

Children Learn What They Live
By Dorothy Law Nolte, Ph.D.

If children live with criticism, they learn to condemn.
If children live with hostility, they learn to fight.
If children live with fear, they learn to be apprehensive.
If children live with pity, they learn to feel sorry for themselves.
If children live with ridicule, they learn to feel shy.
If children live with jealousy, they learn to feel envy.
If children live with shame, they learn to feel guilty.
If children live with encouragement, they learn confidence.
If children live with tolerance, they learn patience.
If children live with praise, they learn appreciation.
If children live with acceptance, they learn to love.
If children live with approval, they learn to like themselves.
If children live with recognition, they learn it is good to have a goal.
If children live with sharing, they learn generosity.
If children live with honesty, they learn truthfulness.
If children live with fairness, they learn justice.
If children live with kindness and consideration, they learn respect.
If children live with security, they learn to have faith in themselves and in those about them.
If children live with friendliness, they learn the world is a nice place in which to live.

Copyright © 1972 by Dorothy Law Nolte

Oh and in my experience little girls are better at making the required responses than boys are, but they are also better at doing quiet, unobtrusive things to other children whereas boys do things much more obviously.

I think this behaviour is unacceptable and wonder what any of us would think if this was our child or grandchild who was being battered with a bike to the extent of bleeding profusely? Agree about taking bike away and telling the child why. At nearly four this little lad will soon be starting school and this behaviour needs to be addressed pronto. Sorry to be negative, but I dont like all these excuses about empathy awareness, if this was my child I would be worried sick about his behaviour as his Mother likely is. Teaching consideration for others is one of the reasons for pre-school children attending playgroups or nursery. It wasnt until my son started parent and toddler group at just over 2 that he grasped the concept of waiting his turn for things, before that as a then only child he never had to wait in line to get his coat on or get some juice. Social skills such as eating with others, sharing toys, playing games are essential.

I do agree with the poem - who could argue with its ethos? But bad behaviour does require a reprimand and spitefulness towards other children has to be stopped.

With regard to knowing right from wrong my DGS and his visiting cousin, both just 3, were at t'other Granny's house running around upstairs shouting, jumping on the bed and generally being excited three yr old boys.
However one of them called down and shouted "Mummy don't come up!"

Now I think that they had probably realised that what they were doing might not be appreciated and they did not want to be found out but lacked the guile to realise that they had given the game away. Which suggests to me that they had a degree of conscience but not the maturity to resist playing as they were.

Fortunately co-granny has a sense of humour.

Also at the age of 4 my DD came in with dress she did not like much in her hand and said it had a hole in it. Looking at it it was quite obvious it had been cut. I had started worrying a bit about how naughty that was. I repaired it and made her wear it again.
She has grown up as a totally sensible and caring adult.

Telling a child that he must not ride his bike into people and why is not "strongly reprimanding" him; it is explaining why you don't want him to do it.

It is the behaviour that is being criticised, as it should be.

I found the phrases "I want you to..." and "I don't want you to..." useful with my kids. "I don't want you to ride your bike into someone because it hurts them" is fine. Most four year olds will understand that.

There may be reasons for his lack of social skills that need to be investigated now .It may not be naughtiness and if this is so ,early intervention is needed and professional help given.

The reason I didn't comment on the actual incident was because I had so little information about what had happened before and during it. I find it really interesting that so many people are prepared to say what this child did was wrong without knowing more. In my experience even very young children have a strong sense of justice. So the child who hits another one seemingly without provocation may have been subjected to a series of small aggravations over a period of time and has simply snapped. He needs to be told what he did was wrong but also to be reassured that any problems will be sorted out if he tells an adult.
There is also in the post a feeling that what he did was deliberate and intended, but there is also the possibility that in fact he hit the child accidentally (4 year olds on bikes are seldom really as in control as we wish) and then continued to ride because he was shocked and didn't want to admit what had happened.
I simply don't know what went on and I wouldn't want to condemn a child on the scanty information I have.
I would have the same attitude if it was my child or grandchild who was the victim. Circumstances matter.

trisher I think the OP made it quite clear that the child carried on 'even when it was obvious' and also that it had happened before. I don't think she would have posted if she thought it was as simple as a little retaliation or an accident. I don't think anyone is condemning him, simply responding to a worried poster with what they think will help.

But how can anyone know what is going on in a child's mind? Even if he looked to be aiming straight at the child there are infinite possibilities
a) he expected the child to run out of the way
b) his bike control skills were limited and he failed to steer around the child
c) he planned to stop but didn't for some reason.
I am not saying he didn't behave badly, just that with the information I have I would never judge a child to be in need of strict reprimands on such little information.
I also think it is interesting that his "sorry" was dismissed as
"it was obvious that that was because he knew he was in trouble, rather than really being sorry"
In my experience children who say 'sorry'. but find adults dismiss it, stop saying it, and become even more unwilling, and unable, to take into account others feelings

You don't need to know what was going on in the child's mind when he rode his bike into another child BUT he needs to know what is going on in your mind afterwards, i.e. that you wish he wouldn't do that and the reasons why.

If that's what is a strict reprimand, so be it, but it's not what I call a strict reprimand. I call it explaining about being careful not to hurt other people.

I haven't read of any strict remands just good common sense.
TBH I would be more concerned about the safety of the other children than over worrying about simply explaining you should not have to be forcibly removed from your bike when the other child is hurt, distressed and losing blood.

You don't like posts that recommend an aggressive children should be strongly reprimanded trisher well you are entitled to that opinion as I am entitled to dislike psychobabble.

an

It isn't psychobabble to be concerned about a report of an incident that portrays a child in such a negative way, or to think that one should be careful about commenting on the said incident with so little information available. It is interesting that some posters seem to meet my comments with such a degree of animosity. Why is it wrong to ask what is really going on? I didn't say the child shouldn't be reprimanded just that I had too little information to judge.
Children sometimes develop ways of responding to others that mask their true feelings. I have seen children laugh when an adult was speaking to them, not because they found something funny, but because they were nervous.

I don't think there's anything wrong with asking what is really going on, but I don't think there's anything wrong with taking the story as given and commenting on the situation in a straightforward way either, which is what a number of people have done.