holidays

I live in Ireland and there's definitely a culture of taking children out of school for random days out or a weeks holiday without any issue from the schools, even at secondary level.

Personally, I'm far more irritated by the amount of time they waste spend on religious practices for communion, confirmation etc. (My DS attends a Catholic school and I'm an aetheist so that probably colours my view somewhat.)

However, I still believe that the Irish education system is superior overall to the current UK system (far less interference from Govt. and no silly SATS nonsense for starters) and that was one of the main reasons we moved over here.

when our 2 children were at primary school in the 80's it was allowed for children to be taken out of school for up to l0 school days per year. we generally had 2 weeks away in italy by train in may half term and extended it for the next week which meant actually only missing one week at school. they learned a great deal from our travels to many interesting places with many happy memories of family time together, given their father worked long shifts and was often working over the weekends and bank holidays when other dads were around.
we did not take them out of school when at senior school and both went on to be successful confident young women. perhaps it can be disruptive if a number of children are absent, but it was not seen as damaging in any way then.
I now have 2 small grandchildren and i feel for my daughter because holidays of any sort are so expensive especially in july/august. we have helped them with what in effect is a 3 full day break to center parcs at the end of august costing over £1100 for a basic 2 bed cabin. i was astonished and checked but caravans in the uk have similar prices. she works in the nhs so is not overpaid, their mortgage is sky high living in the south east so they just do not have holidays, missing all that their mum and aunt experienced. when children reach l8 and can travel when they like, going away with parents is the last thing on any young persons mind. !!
fee paying schools have much longer holidays so it isnt a problem fitting a family holiday in before the state schools break up.

I think if you check that if your children have a good attendance record then the school cannot fine you for taking them out of school on one occasion. I believe a father took his local authorities to court over this sometimes last year and won his case.

I am a retired primary head. Education IS important...and so is family time on holiday together. It can be a time of bonding, resting and playing together.
I see no harm in a fortnight of family fun...and it can have great benefits for children and parents alike. Taking children out of school may be the only way a family holiday can be taken. It's wrong to have hard and fast rules about this. And fines are quite frankly ridiculous. A family holiday can be a source of joy and learning.
I used say to the parents in my schools...help your child make a scrapbook of your holiday to show us, and
'Never let schooling get in the way of your child's education'.

Taking odd days off here and there is far more damaging than a planned week for a holiday. There were always children, when I was teaching, whose absence was sporadic, several days a month perhaps, for all sorts of reasons, true and false. As for the ethics of paying for absence ( one law for the rich etc.) I have talked to parents for whom it is still cheaper than going in the school holidays. There may be 13 weeks break, but the cost of taking holidays at these peak times is extortionate. Holidays are valuable family times, and children learn all the time, and it doesn't have to always be from some rigidly planned curriculum, with one eye on the test.

I went to school in Canada and we had longer summer holidays (July and August)but no half terms and only a few days at Christmas. I don't remember there being any difficulty in booking holidays in that time.
The grade system works much better than the constantly changing exam systems in the UK and one reason it works is that there is time in the Summer for children who are falling behind to go to Summer school so that they can keep their grades up. Children don't want to be held back for a year and be separated from their friends so they are incentivized to care more about passing exams.
If an entire Country with a population the size of the UK are all trying to book their holidays in August it is bound to cause problems. I think it needs to be looked at from a different perspective.
It is wrong for people to take their children out of school but it is understandable.

We took our three out of school when we had the chance of a trip to China. The Head was quite happy and required a scrapbook/journal from each of them which they duly provided and there was no problem 'catching up'. The problem here as I see it is SATS and league tables. Teachers live in fear of poor test results.
We live near Heathrow and the only objection I heard in those pre SATS days was to immigrant families, Dad or Mum working for the airlines so cheap/free tickets, who annually took their children out of school for a month or more to see their families back home.
No private education for our lot. They went to the nearest state schools and two of them got 1st class degrees. Don't tell me they all would have done had we not taken them out of school for three weeks when they were 3, 6 and 8.
Incidentally, at the school I worked in until retirement 8 years ago, just 10 years ago a teacher was off for a day, with the Head's permission, because she had been given a ticket to watch the tennis at Wimbledon!

Whilst realising that holiday companies and airlines raise their prices during school holidays, I still think taking a child out for one or two weeks is disruptive. I live in a holiday town. The area I lived in(still do) has a lot of guest houses and hotels. In my children's primary school parents always added on a week in the Autumn and winter half terms. For many this was the only time they could get away due to being out of our heavy holiday season. It was understandable, but it meant that each class had several missing children. I remember the Head sending out letters begging parents to stop doing this but it continued. Of course now it's different as the Education Department has cut down on this with a fine system.

As others have said, it isn't just a matter of cost. If you live in a tourist area and work in the tourist industry, you cannot take time off during peak season, ie July, August, school or bank holidays - my ex was a chef and was in this position when my children were small.

In other cases, if there are many people with school age children in a workplace, they cannot all take holidays at the same time because of the need for coverage - imagine ringing for customer service and being told you will have to wait 3 weeks because too many support staff are on holiday - I was in this position when they were a bit older.

This applies whether you are talking about a beach holiday, a trip to Disneyland or a week touring with a tent.

Have any of these parents who take their children out of school considered how they would feel if their child's teacher decided to take a couple of weeks off during term time to have a cheaper holiday with their own family?

Elegran, I love your analogy - brilliant! As an LSA I know how much it affects children's education when they're absent for any length of time. I was going to say particularly in Secondary School, which is why I didn't take my sons out during that time. However, there is so much pressure throughout the whole of a child's education nowadays that Primary school education is just as crucial.
A whole new topic maybe ... the pressure on all involved in education nowadays: teachers, children, parents ...
Also relevant that SATS in year 2 is a topic on another thread.

I applaud you barbaraf. Nothing wrong with taking primary school children out for up to two weeks in order to have a family holiday if time/money is an issue. The old adage 'travel broadens the mind' still applies. unless a child is way behind I really don't see that it can do any harm.

I took mine out a couple of times and they were fine. my Dil took my DGD out so they could spend time at Centre Parks over DSs 40th birthday week. They had a great time and did all sorts of things. She fixed it with the headmaster who was quite happy about it. She was told that you could take them out for 4 1/2 days without being fined, so they picked her up on Monday lunchtime.

LOL NVella - indeed ;)

My daughter phoned in sick for her 5 year old son as their Easter holiday began the day before the school broke up. At that age I don't think it's a big issue. The new school term was delayed by a day due to teachers training on return !

We took our children out of primary school, you didn't have to pay then, but we didn't do it in when they were in secondary school. We too, went to Florida. What an education that was for them. Another culture, the Everglades, Seaworld, Epcot centre which a large science section and half of it was different countries with a taste of their culture. We made them keep a scrapbook which they wrote in every day. Believe me, I think they learnt more in that two weeks than they would have done at school, and it didn't have any adverse effects on their education as both have good jobs.

Why should parents be able to pay to take their children out of school during term time or say they are ill when they're not. What about the teachers who are not allowed to take their holidays during term time. Parents would soon complain if teachers were allowed to take holidays in term time with no alternative cover apart from maybe a TA.

Spot on ELEGRAN.Classes are planned for a whole class and should be delivered as such.Teachers have enough pressures with class sizes without time spent catching up on pupils out of term holidays.Or, give the work in advance to the parents and let them deal with it before heading to the pool each day.

Ideas are so entrenched on this subject there will be no consensus.

could someone please tell me what the difference is between a child missing a week's schooling as they are taken out of school by their parents for a holiday and a child missing a week's schooling because of illness.

in both cases it seems to me that they will have to catch up on work but nothing is said about children being off school through illness.

the whole system needs looking at as it's disadvantaging those parents who cannot afford the extra money demanded by hotels/airports/caravan parks, etc in the holiday weeks.

my daughter looked up the difference as she was toying with the idea of going to cornwall to a caravan park for a week. it was getting on for £1000 more to go in the school holidays - something that we wouldn't be able to afford as we're both on low incomes.

and how can this difference be justified? the hotel bedroom/flight/caravan still costs the same whatever the week of the year so is it just plain greed which bumps the prices up at holiday times?

sorry patriciaann71 - i appear to have rather strayed from your original post.

I cannot see why/how imposing a fine makes any difference whatsoever other than to make cash strapped parents even more so.

It is so easy for some to say they would never or have never, taken their child out of school for a family holiday and even easier for those who are/were teachers enjoying 13 weeks holiday per year instead of the usual 4. I have just texted a friend who's son goes to private school and she tells me that they have 17-18 weeks holiday per year so its very easy for them. She also commented that they always take breaks just outside the state school holidays so enjoy the better prices too. win, win.

In my DGC's school there are some poor children who don't know what its like to visit the seaside in their own town never mind have a proper holiday.

Why do some of you feel so sorry for teachers not being able to have holidays during term time? They have an enormous amount of weeks off anyway, they actually chose that profession and their pay is pretty reasonable compared with many, plus many of them have children of their own so the holidays all fit into place.

I education now being treated like a benefit and sanctions applied if parents/children don't meet the criteria?

I wasn't happy when my daughter said she was taking my three grandchildren out of school (5 missed school days in total each) to go to India earlier this year. However they really got immersed in the culture (their grandfather being born and growing up there). They visited an orphanage and a school where they took clothes for the poorer children and saw a completely different way of life compared to their more privileged one back in the UK. On balance I believe they gained a valuable life experience and therefore were more enriched by that.

DS2 works 12 hour shifts, 4 day/night on, 4 off; he then gets 18 days off every 3 months. No change, no possibility of taking some of the school holidays off. What is he to do if he wants to take his child on holiday? Fortunately, his "18" sometimes matches school holidays so he can take his boy away. He misses seeing him at weekends, because the child lives with his mum and is at school some distance away. There should be more flexibility...
I think that 9-5 Mon-Fri people have less "right" to take their children off than people like DS.
I can completely understand the situation, that some parents abuse the system, that some parents can't afford the prices, etc. It is hard to make the right judgement for both the parents and the schools. Occam's Razor comes to mind.

Taking children of any age out of school just to go on holiday is wrong, plain and simple!
When our DS was of school age, his dad worked shifts, and he had no choice over his holiday dates, the firm chose their closure dates and we were stuck with that!
If we wanted to go away during these closures, we had no choice but to pay premium rates as it was almost always in August. We never went abroad with him, we just couldn't afford it, but we had wonderful holidays in caravans and cottages in North Yorkshire, Kent, Scotland, North Wales, Lancashire, Shropshire etc.
We didn't need 'Disney-esque' entertainment to have a good time, we made our own fun!
I fail to see why nowadays people 'want jam on it'. A holiday doesn't have to be abroad, it doesn't even have to be in a caravan somewhere cheap in this country. It's all about spending time with your children, so why wouldn't days out suffice? It's a harsh fact that holiday companies put their prices up during school holidays, it's wrong of them to do so, but as there's not yet any law against it, they'll carry on doing so.
In short, the law states that you are responsible for your child's attendance at school, so if you choose to ignore that, pay the fine, it's a case of 'put up or shut up'!