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Charlie Gard

(742 Posts)
devongirl Sun 09-Jul-17 18:18:35

My heart absolutely bleeds for his parents, but I can't help thinking it's time to let him die in peace..

Anniebach Tue 11-Jul-17 21:03:10

Tegan, I doubt there is one answer to your question, it comes down to people's opinions, rather like politics ,

There was a pro life activist in America who shot and killed staff members of an abortion clinic , make sense of that one if you can

There are no set rules , I said in an earlier post I am semi pro life , I have not come down on one side or the other in this discussion because for me to say he should live or he should die is too simplistic , in my opinion it is an individual choice to support pro life or condemn pro life

Rigby46 Tue 11-Jul-17 21:08:38

But the real pro lifers like this appalling pastor do NOT believe in individual choice do they ab whereas pro-choicers do.

Eloethan Tue 11-Jul-17 22:51:07

Although it is a terrible situation for the parents, this must be about the little boy.

It has been reported that several doctors - some of whom have been involved in his care and treatment, and others who have seen him and studied his medical notes, have said this little boy cannot see or hear - or feed or breathe independently of machines. On top of that, he is said to have profound brain damage and to need regular doses of morphine, presumably to ease pain and distress. It is his doctors' opinion that his condition is terminal and that it is not in his best interests to keep him alive artificially.

Why would the little boy's doctors say this unless they truly believe it - and surely, having had day-to-day care of him, they have the most knowledge of his condition. Because of patient confidentiality they cannot speak out and explain exactly why they take the view they do, and so it seems unfair that they are being subjected to criticism.

In a TV documentary I saw a few years ago, a paediatrician admitted that he was often very troubled as to whether it was in a baby's best interests to carry out distressing procedures and continual surgery on very sick babies when the outcome was overwhelmingly likely to be eventual death.

As I understand it, the procedure the parents are seeking is experimental and, of course, it is only through experimentation that new treatments and surgical procedures are perfected. But it is my view that, whilst it is in order for a terminally ill adult to agree to submit themselves to experimental procedures that may prolong their lives, there is a question as to whether a baby, who cannot speak for himself, should be subjected to such experimentation.

paddyann Tue 11-Jul-17 23:56:29

I dont think most folk are PRO abortion we're pro choice ,most woman have abortions because there isn't a way they can have the child for a multitude of reasons,be it health or financial or any other...every reason is valid if it would affect the mother badly to carry the child and give birth.Any one I know who has had a termination carries the guilt of it with them ,some decades later .Even though it was a medical necessity .Its not the easy way out some of you think

DS64till Wed 12-Jul-17 07:57:03

I think they ought to be allowed to take him and try this, for all their sakes . I would fight the same for my children ?

Margs Wed 12-Jul-17 11:05:00

Agree, devongirl. Every time it gets near to a legal deadline someone manages to pull a chunk of "fresh new evidence" out of some kind of magic hat, to put before the court. And then the whole gruelling process is drawn out, yet again.

Terrible times for the parents, the doctors and - arguably, most of all - the judges who have all the responsibility placed at their feet.

But it HAS turned into a media circus and I suspect that Charlie's parents are being manipulated by some unscrupulous PR persons who can smell the big bucks from selling film rights, getting a lucrative publishing deal and flogging every aspect of this sorry saga for every last cent they can get.

This is - unfortunately - the world we now have......

Tegan2 Wed 12-Jul-17 11:11:51

'Mike Pence, the US vice president, has also waded into the row, using Charlie’s case to insist a universal healthcare system would not work in the US.

Mr Pence told an American radio programme, hosted by a right-wing talk show host Rush Limbaugh: “The heartbreaking story of the 11-month-old Charlie Gard in England is a story of single-payer healthcare'
..sadly it seems to me that everyone is now using this tragic case to further their own political/moral beliefs, and the welfare of the poor child is becoming less and less important. I do hope he isn't suffering sad.

Eloethan Wed 12-Jul-17 14:45:49

Perhaps Mr Pence would like to look at the Commonwealth Fund research which found:

New York, NY, September 23, 2011 — The United States placed last among 16 high-income, industrialized nations when it comes to deaths that could potentially have been prevented by timely access to effective health care."

annsixty Wed 12-Jul-17 15:18:35

Google news has a story about a five year old boy with a similar syndrome to Charlie. He has had some treatment and now at the age of 5 "can move his eyes slightly for the first time and can make some sounds"
He cannot breathe on his own and will be on a ventilator for the rest of his life.
Both parents have given up work to care for him and have raised funds to convert the garage in the wife's parents home for him.
What total dedication but..... could I do it?
I just thank God I Have not been put to the test.

aggie Wed 12-Jul-17 15:32:53

the logistics of transporting a very poorly baby, with life support and all those tubes , to another hospital , never mind accross the atlantic are beyond anything reasonable . If he survived all that trauma he would be treated with so little improvement , 4% of nothing ,

Anniebach Wed 12-Jul-17 16:00:39

Sorry Aggie but 4% of a life, he is not yet dead , sadly very close to it though

BlueBelle Wed 12-Jul-17 16:05:37

Would you want to live with 4 % of your life, that's what you have to ask yourself ....and if your arguement is only God can take a life away then remove the human interventions and allow God to take him as he is not alive through Gods will alone but through man s inventions

Baggs Wed 12-Jul-17 16:09:48

He would be dead but for a machine. The ability to keep someone 4% 'alive' with a machine does not mean we always should.

annsixty Wed 12-Jul-17 16:10:14

And mans intervention.

Baggs Wed 12-Jul-17 16:10:57

Spot on, bluebelle.

Anniebach Wed 12-Jul-17 16:59:38

Bluebell, I have never said God takes away life , the little one is not yet a corpse , this is why I said 4% of life , we are either alive or dead , no middle bit

BlueBelle Wed 12-Jul-17 20:27:48

But you're missing my point Anniebach You say the little one is not yet a corpse but he would be if man hadn't intervened in the first place He is not living a real life but a very very limited artificial one Perhaps I m not wording it correctly but I know what I mean
It not a natural or normal life and death situation it's actually a manmade intervention that has turned into a bigger nightmare than it originally was

Deedaa Wed 12-Jul-17 23:11:59

There was a lady on the News tonight who is hoping her 12 year old daughter will be allowed to die. She is more aware than Charlie is at the moment but her mother feels she has no quality of life.

Tegan2 Wed 12-Jul-17 23:53:36

Yes, I saw that. And the child cries so the mother knows she's distressed and probably in pain. One of the reasons why I find all this so upsetting is that [and I find it difficult to type this as it scares me so much I blot it out of my mind most of the time] my biggest nightmare would be to suffer from locked in body syndrome. The thought of it petrifies me, so thinking that these children are in that sort of situation upsets me terribly.

Eloethan Thu 13-Jul-17 00:37:17

Yes,it's a horrible thought isn't it Tegan. Poor children.

Menopaws Thu 13-Jul-17 06:57:37

I have a disabled three y o grandson who has a genetic condition and misses part of brain stem, they didn't know this before birth, anyway the way they look after him is quite brilliant (the parents) and many lessons have been learnt by all of us about human nature, the medical world, our own emotions and attitude to disability etc etc.
What I hate about this case is how people will think badly of GOSH purely because of this publicity, they work wonders with our little man and millions of others.
As much as we absolutely adore and treasure our chap, my son and dil will have a lifetime of chairs and hoists, they are raising money to alter their house to accommodate his equipment etc and they live on a knife edge every day as one non breathing episode would end his life in a second.
He is loved deeply and is very bright and understands us and signs well but he will never walk or talk, be continent and his frustration leads to many a heartbreaking tantrum ending in injury and pain often and with all our hearts breaking just a little bit more.
In all honesty I wish he had died a tiny baby and they could have grieved and loved what they had had and remembered him fondly, we all know him too well now no when he goes it will be just awful.
My opinion and others can bitch about it all they want but I think they should love him and let him go, they will have others and remember him fondly instead of courting publicity and bad mouthing the brilliant medicL attention that we have in this country. Selfish and expensive. I'm done.

Leticia Thu 13-Jul-17 07:02:39

I feel very sorry for the parents but the child should come first and be allowed to die peacefully, surrounded by love.

Rigby46 Thu 13-Jul-17 07:12:23

Menopaws what a moving, brave, realistic post.

Imperfect27 Thu 13-Jul-17 07:36:46

Yes, a beautiful post Menopaws.

I have a nephew who is now in his twenties. He has cerebral palsy and will never be able to live a fully independent life. He was not expected to live beyond his teen years and as they themselves age, his parents are deeply anxious about how he will manage later in life as their love and care is all he has known. His needs have consumed their lives and mean that they cannot look forward to many of the things we would take for granted in retired years. Very sad. I can't help but look at little baby Charlie and think it will be better if he is allowed to slip away.

Nelliemoser Thu 13-Jul-17 08:13:21

Menopaws and BlueBelle I fully understand your points of view. What about quality of life for both the seriously disabled child and the parents?