Niqab/burqa ban in Netherlands

Lessismore....nobody said that you were saying posters had racist views, but that there had been comments on here from different people saying it, and POGS has just given you the examples.
Now, have you got that message clear in your head?

mmmm no, I am a bit dim, maybe you could recap?

Seems pointless then Lessismore.
I wonder soon if we will have the Think Law, when you are in trouble for what you thinking, it really is getting ridiculous, common sense out of the window. The card is played for something nothing to do with being so, if someone decides to win an argument it is easier to be listened to if you add rascist to it.
How would you know if someone with Burkha, with a visor is man or woman, or concealing something. How to they get a driving licence or bus pass or passport? These are not rascist questions. As far as I know it is a legal requirement . Does anyone know the answer?

Passport photographs have to include eyes, nose and mouth visible. If women wearing a burkha need to show their faces at airports/government buildings they are offered the choice of doing this in a private room rather than in public.

The same would apply I imagine to driving licences, that is the face must be visible.

The notion that we'll have a Think Law or that common sense is out of the window, followed by a question said not to be racist but posed in the way it was, does suggest the poster isn't happy in a multi cultural society.

paddyann
" I Think I might have said it had racist tones ."
-

You said :-
"This type of subconcious racism is shocking !"

Lessismore Sat 03-Aug-19 19:50:59
Yes, but where did I say these things...??
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Ah, the I don't like the answer to my generalised question so I will come back turning it around to be all about me because the answer did not suit ploy. It never works!

You asked a question, you received a reply.!

I find the full veil uncomfortable as well. It is cultural and not religious, and those women who insist they are willingly following their religion are brainwashed. Respectable clothing and a headscarf are enough. Many, many women do not choose this and are pressured. There is NO religious reason and should be banned in my opinion. Nothing to do with terrorism. All to do with just being wrong and uneccessary.

POGS, no idea what you are talking about. I have very much enjoyed getting to know some women who wear the burqa. I am proud of myself for pushing myself out of my comfort zone. I found them to be exactly the same as myself, with the same issues and likes/dislikes......my husband is annoying/I don't have time to wash my hair/which school is good/I've put weight on. Standard chat.

I need to get off here and away from the nastiness.

Lessismore, you have created the conflict. I am not sure you are following the discussion. People with views you don't share have every right to them.

Many of us have worked in multicultural communities for decades. The arrival of the Burqa is a relatively recent form of dress for Muslim women, and some would say it is worn to make a point about radical Islam.

What I DO know is that most educated, working Muslim women (who dress modestly and are devout Muslims) also feel the Burqa has, more than anything else, created distrust amongst communities and makes integration much harder.

They can feel the suspicion and discomfort with the burqa which reflects on all Muslims, most of whom are fairly westernised in habit, with Islam just as important to them as it is to the fundamentalists.

It is not a compulsory form of dress.

I feel quite sorry for the women who wear it. It makes all forms of personal interaction difficult, given we smile, laugh, frown and express ourselves with our faces. My Muslim ex-colleagues have despaired that young women, as young as 16 are imprisoned in this cover-all and have their lives in the west made much more difficult.

I am one who doesn't feel the onus is on liberated westerners to be accepting of a form of extreme dress which creates suspicion, anxiety, distrust (because the world has become a violent and often unhappy place because of wars, terrorism and culture-clashes) and is completely alien to the way in which we live. Tolerance works both ways too, so to live in the west and enjoy all modern living has to offer is to accept that culturally some adjustments have to be made.

The burqa does not promote integration, tolerance or understanding, which is imperative in a world which needs to be come peaceful. e don't need animosity. Radical, fundamental Islam really has no place in the west given the nature of its patriarchy, practices and laws.

Turning a blind eye to something extremely alien to the way in which we live in the name of 'tolerance' isn't the way forward either. We have to stop treading on eggshells concerning the burqa.

The difficulty I have with this is that husbands probably go into consulting rooms with their wives because it is unlikely that they can speak English and he has to translate. She is likely not allowed out of the the house without a male escort.

That doesn't sound like 'freedom' to me.

I am sorry lovebeige, but how would you know this? There could be many reasons why a husband would go in alongside a woman.
I have once or twice asked my husband to accompany me.

" it is unlikely that they can speak English" is rather a generalisation.
" She is likely not allowed out of the house without a male escort" is another one.
I have met women from Saudi Arabia who have the Mahram " system". Maybe that is what you mean?

Anyhow it's pointless having this discussion. I suppose on balance, I would rather we didn't have the face covering idea which seems fraught with difficulty.

Again, apologies but this just isn't true.

The arrival of the Burqa is a relatively recent form of dress for Muslim women

Would you have been shocked when my husband a 60 year old white male accompanied me to the result of my cancer tests ?Or any of the other men in the waiting room with wives scared to face the results on their own? Honestly some of you have very odd ideas I have been friends with a moslem family since my daughter was baby,she's 41 .They are hard working family orientated good hearted people ..like any other s of all faiths and none .This divisiveness is the cause of the mess we're in...even Brexit ..or especially it .People live different lives .not WRONG just different ,with different food and dress and ways of doing things .Maybe you should learn to accept that .

You said :-
"This type of subconcious racism is shocking !"

No, I didn't

Just last week I had to restrain my OH from remonstrating with the driving instructor in the very erratically driven car in front of us which was being driven by a person in a Burkha with no peripheral vision. My argument was that he would terrify the two women (instructor had on a hijab) but I shared his concern.
That reminds me I had intended to check the legality of driving with impeded vision. Does anyone know whether this constitutes dangerous driving?

Well said Day6.

Here's an article on the Dutch ban:

www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/partial-dutch-ban-on-face-covering-clothing-comes-into-force/2019/08/01/e528463a-b43b-11e9-acc8-1d847bacca73_story.html?utm_term=.bdcc4321b67d

Some excerpts and different viewpoints from the article:

"The Dutch government has insisted that its partial ban doesn’t target any religion and that people are free to dress how they want. A government site explaining the new ban says, however, that “this freedom is limited at locations where communication is vital for good quality service or for security in society.” "

"It remains to be seen how strenuously the law will be enforced in the Netherlands."

"Professor Tom Zwart of the University of Utrecht... said that the ban is largely symbolic, but for women who wear a niqab 'the ban is still on the books, and if they come across a strict bus driver or tram conductor, they might still be in trouble. This undoubtedly has a chilling effect on their ability to take part in public life.' "

Good question, Espee. I was almost hit by a driver like this a few days ago. I'm all for religious freedom and people being able to maintain their cultural traditions, but sometimes, IMO, modifications need to be made for safety reasons.

I believe that driving in a hijab is no different to when my son drives in a hoodie with the hood up, no one remonstrates with him, this thread is quite unbelievable.

Lessismore Sun 04-Aug-19 19:42:29
You said :-
"This type of subconcious racism is shocking !"

No, I didn't
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No you did not and nobody said you did.!

Scienta

The hijab is different to a burka.

Again, apologies but this just isn't true

The arrival of the Burqa is a relatively recent form of dress for Muslim women

I don't know where you live Lessismore but I can remember spending a weekend in London and NOT seeing anyone wearing a burqa. This was a while ago, but still in recent memory.

I remember being shocked when I DID see a burqa wearer a few years later. I was horrified. It wasn't something I'd seen before. Since then the wearing of the burqa has become more common.

So it IS a relatively (note the word 'relatively') recent form of dress in the UK and many suggest it was brought in by fundamentalists who decry western values.

Since the 1970s we have all been used to seeing Asian women (and men) in traditional dress, and many of us have been invited to hospitality in mosques and temples. I have had the pleasure of attending Asian festivals and wedding ceremonies too.

I have written enough on this thread about why I feel we should ban the burqa so I won't repeat myself. I will however add that the Muslim women I know are appalled that radical, fundamental Islam, which requires the wearing of the burqa is spreading. They say it is dividing Muslim communities too.

Day6’s post on 2nd August, at 8.34 sums it up superbly.
I’m sick to death of hearing people cry ‘racism’ as soon as anyone questions some behaviours. It is not a cultural norm in this country, or indeed in the west, to walk around covered from head to toe and looking out at the world through a slit. Of course no one should be expected to dress in western clothes if they prefer not to, but this total covering is another thing altogether. And the covering of children’s hair from as young as 4/5 years old is unacceptable in the west too in my opinion. I worked for years amongst Muslim women, not a single one of them covered their faces, although some covered their hair. No problem. The problem is not being able to see the person you are interacting with. As I also worked with young children, I think it would have been quite scary for them to be confronted by a faceless person.

Another good post Day6, the one immediately before mine.
(I’ve only just found this thread today. )