Niqab/burqa ban in Netherlands

Lessismore Sun 04-Aug-19 19:42:29
You said :-
"This type of subconcious racism is shocking !"

No, I didn't
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No you did not and nobody said you did.!

I believe that driving in a hijab is no different to when my son drives in a hoodie with the hood up, no one remonstrates with him, this thread is quite unbelievable.

Good question, Espee. I was almost hit by a driver like this a few days ago. I'm all for religious freedom and people being able to maintain their cultural traditions, but sometimes, IMO, modifications need to be made for safety reasons.

Some excerpts and different viewpoints from the article:

"The Dutch government has insisted that its partial ban doesn’t target any religion and that people are free to dress how they want. A government site explaining the new ban says, however, that “this freedom is limited at locations where communication is vital for good quality service or for security in society.” "

"It remains to be seen how strenuously the law will be enforced in the Netherlands."

"Professor Tom Zwart of the University of Utrecht... said that the ban is largely symbolic, but for women who wear a niqab 'the ban is still on the books, and if they come across a strict bus driver or tram conductor, they might still be in trouble. This undoubtedly has a chilling effect on their ability to take part in public life.' "

Here's an article on the Dutch ban:

www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/partial-dutch-ban-on-face-covering-clothing-comes-into-force/2019/08/01/e528463a-b43b-11e9-acc8-1d847bacca73_story.html?utm_term=.bdcc4321b67d

Well said Day6.

Just last week I had to restrain my OH from remonstrating with the driving instructor in the very erratically driven car in front of us which was being driven by a person in a Burkha with no peripheral vision. My argument was that he would terrify the two women (instructor had on a hijab) but I shared his concern.
That reminds me I had intended to check the legality of driving with impeded vision. Does anyone know whether this constitutes dangerous driving?

You said :-
"This type of subconcious racism is shocking !"

No, I didn't

Would you have been shocked when my husband a 60 year old white male accompanied me to the result of my cancer tests ?Or any of the other men in the waiting room with wives scared to face the results on their own? Honestly some of you have very odd ideas I have been friends with a moslem family since my daughter was baby,she's 41 .They are hard working family orientated good hearted people ..like any other s of all faiths and none .This divisiveness is the cause of the mess we're in...even Brexit ..or especially it .People live different lives .not WRONG just different ,with different food and dress and ways of doing things .Maybe you should learn to accept that .

Again, apologies but this just isn't true.

The arrival of the Burqa is a relatively recent form of dress for Muslim women

I am sorry lovebeige, but how would you know this? There could be many reasons why a husband would go in alongside a woman.
I have once or twice asked my husband to accompany me.

" it is unlikely that they can speak English" is rather a generalisation.
" She is likely not allowed out of the house without a male escort" is another one.
I have met women from Saudi Arabia who have the Mahram " system". Maybe that is what you mean?

Anyhow it's pointless having this discussion. I suppose on balance, I would rather we didn't have the face covering idea which seems fraught with difficulty.

The difficulty I have with this is that husbands probably go into consulting rooms with their wives because it is unlikely that they can speak English and he has to translate. She is likely not allowed out of the the house without a male escort.

That doesn't sound like 'freedom' to me.

Lessismore, you have created the conflict. I am not sure you are following the discussion. People with views you don't share have every right to them.

Many of us have worked in multicultural communities for decades. The arrival of the Burqa is a relatively recent form of dress for Muslim women, and some would say it is worn to make a point about radical Islam.

What I DO know is that most educated, working Muslim women (who dress modestly and are devout Muslims) also feel the Burqa has, more than anything else, created distrust amongst communities and makes integration much harder.

They can feel the suspicion and discomfort with the burqa which reflects on all Muslims, most of whom are fairly westernised in habit, with Islam just as important to them as it is to the fundamentalists.

It is not a compulsory form of dress.

I feel quite sorry for the women who wear it. It makes all forms of personal interaction difficult, given we smile, laugh, frown and express ourselves with our faces. My Muslim ex-colleagues have despaired that young women, as young as 16 are imprisoned in this cover-all and have their lives in the west made much more difficult.

I am one who doesn't feel the onus is on liberated westerners to be accepting of a form of extreme dress which creates suspicion, anxiety, distrust (because the world has become a violent and often unhappy place because of wars, terrorism and culture-clashes) and is completely alien to the way in which we live. Tolerance works both ways too, so to live in the west and enjoy all modern living has to offer is to accept that culturally some adjustments have to be made.

The burqa does not promote integration, tolerance or understanding, which is imperative in a world which needs to be come peaceful. e don't need animosity. Radical, fundamental Islam really has no place in the west given the nature of its patriarchy, practices and laws.

Turning a blind eye to something extremely alien to the way in which we live in the name of 'tolerance' isn't the way forward either. We have to stop treading on eggshells concerning the burqa.

POGS, no idea what you are talking about. I have very much enjoyed getting to know some women who wear the burqa. I am proud of myself for pushing myself out of my comfort zone. I found them to be exactly the same as myself, with the same issues and likes/dislikes......my husband is annoying/I don't have time to wash my hair/which school is good/I've put weight on. Standard chat.

I need to get off here and away from the nastiness.

I find the full veil uncomfortable as well. It is cultural and not religious, and those women who insist they are willingly following their religion are brainwashed. Respectable clothing and a headscarf are enough. Many, many women do not choose this and are pressured. There is NO religious reason and should be banned in my opinion. Nothing to do with terrorism. All to do with just being wrong and uneccessary.

Lessismore Sat 03-Aug-19 19:50:59
Yes, but where did I say these things...??
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Ah, the I don't like the answer to my generalised question so I will come back turning it around to be all about me because the answer did not suit ploy. It never works!

You asked a question, you received a reply.!

paddyann
" I Think I might have said it had racist tones ."
-

You said :-
"This type of subconcious racism is shocking !"

Passport photographs have to include eyes, nose and mouth visible. If women wearing a burkha need to show their faces at airports/government buildings they are offered the choice of doing this in a private room rather than in public.

The same would apply I imagine to driving licences, that is the face must be visible.

The notion that we'll have a Think Law or that common sense is out of the window, followed by a question said not to be racist but posed in the way it was, does suggest the poster isn't happy in a multi cultural society.

Seems pointless then Lessismore.
I wonder soon if we will have the Think Law, when you are in trouble for what you thinking, it really is getting ridiculous, common sense out of the window. The card is played for something nothing to do with being so, if someone decides to win an argument it is easier to be listened to if you add rascist to it.
How would you know if someone with Burkha, with a visor is man or woman, or concealing something. How to they get a driving licence or bus pass or passport? These are not rascist questions. As far as I know it is a legal requirement . Does anyone know the answer?

mmmm no, I am a bit dim, maybe you could recap?

Lessismore....nobody said that you were saying posters had racist views, but that there had been comments on here from different people saying it, and POGS has just given you the examples.
Now, have you got that message clear in your head?

even if he's wearing "afghani clothes"

Think I might have said it had racist tones .The post where it was said she was upset or concerned about a partner going in to the gynae appointment with his wife .Seems normal to me if you're getting news about your health that might be bad ,you want your husband to hold your hand .

Do you read other posts.? Do you understand when a word or term is used it may be a generalised comment and does not have to be on a thread, it is an overview of behaviour

How rude are you???????

Yes, but where did I say these things...??