Niqab/burqa ban in Netherlands

I had to laugh when I saw in the paper today that two women were caught in Asda stealing and hiding food under their burkas. A use for the burka I’d never even considered!
Before anyone jumps on the bandwagon I’m NOT suggesting that this is common practice, it just amused me and reminded me of this thread.
Also obviously, it does detract from the serious issue regarding burka wearing, that of subjugation of women.

Careful maddy someone will call you racist! Crime wears many different outfits.

How do you know they were women? One of the problems with the burqa is that we assume that it's a woman they are concealing. It's too easy for a man to hide inside one.

On a somewhat more serious note, posters may remember WPC Sharon Beshinivsky (sorry not sure if that's the right spelling) who was shot dead during an armed robbery. Her male assailant managed to flee the country wearing a burka. More recently a woman wearing one was seen remonstrating with a Pride marcher in a homophobic way. I believe Sadiq Khan said the full force of the law would be applied against her............but how would anyone know who she is ? .

However, I do agree with the rationale, that we must not look upon Muslims as a homogenous group of people they are as individual as the rest of society, that faith encompasses many with a whole range of attitudes.

The old photos of women in Iran and Afghanistan wearing western dress does illustrate how retrograde forced covering up is for the women of those nations and how far back down the pecking order they have fallen. As mentioned up thread I know from my Persian neighbour, she does not enjoy the enforced head covering when she visits Iran to see her mother and extended family. Many of the young women there wear that head scarf as far down the back of the head as they can get away with. Just a headscarf though, how much worse must a burka of the Afghan variety be with a complete lack of peripheral vision

One of the things that puzzles me is that on the news reports from the Middle East...the shops seem to be full of Western clothing, yet the women in the streets are covered up. Does this mean they dress in Western clothes at home, where only their husbands see them?

Nonnie, you are way way wide of the mark. This is something very close to my heart.

The project I refer to was for women who could not access ESOL classes. There are many barriers which prevented them from attending college. There are large waiting lists for colleges, paper work to fill in, which level to you place somebody who can speak a bit of English but has never been to formal schooling,lack of funds meaning they couldn't jump on a bus or a train and so on. So a wonderful and inspiring friend set up something which met people where they were at.
We made it women only and gained the trust of the community. We managed to gain funding for a creche.
We never, ever presented ourselves as do gooders ( a horrible phrase). We were people who were native speakers and had some experience/qualifications.

People were able to mix with others who were from their country, feel less isolated, improve their chances of employment and have a cup of tea and a bit of fun.

I should add that we worked alongside Muslim friends and colleagues.

RosieLeah, from what I've read, Arabic women love their fashion and underneath the burka, they wear everything you would find in the west.

Rosie, the burqa is outdoor clothing.

I've mentioned before that our eldest son and family live in Kuwait. I visited them in 2002 when their first baby was born.
Kuwait is a fairly liberal Arab state, and the women's dress varied from complete coverup to western bareheaded and jeans etc.
Our son told me things have become stricter recently, as the Sunnis are now trying to dominate.
They're leaving soon, I'm quite relieved after the recent tensions in the area.

It must be just as offensive for those Middle Eastern women to see our lot with skirts/dresses right up to their behinds too !

Thanks for answering my query. So their own culture demands that they cover up and yet they admire our style of clothing.

Mind you, after the Crusades, women in Europe copied some of the Arabic clothing, especially the head gear...but we have never felt the need to cover our faces.

Stunning ignorance.

It is outdoor clothing.

"They" can wear whatever they like underneath.

RosieLeah ,sadly, I sometimes feel the need to cover my face !

In support of full body coverups ugly women need not feel at a disadvantage in public.

There are western ways to make women subservient. Mainly by selling unreal images of how they ought to look. The spirit of bra-burning lives on in the feminist movement..

Pyjamas, for example, when running late to get the children to school, I have been told by a Muslim mum.
Jimmy Choo shoes, g strings, and so on..

Lessismore, you have just been stunningly rude about Rosie, who is simply trying to learn about other cultures, or is education only for those you approve of?

Nonnie, I’m well aware that some higher being will try to label me racist, but I’m not worried because I know I’m not!

Terri, I heard about someone who tried to leave the country in a burka, but since he was discovered, it probably wasn’t the same case you mentioned. When I’ve travelled in Muslim countries, women are taken behind a screen to be searched at the airport. I was happy with that, but to be honest, I don’t mind being patted down in full public view, so long as it’s a woman doing the patting (I wear 2 Indian gold bracelets that my husband bought for me in Sri Lanka , and they always set the alarm off!) Anyway, I think the same facility is available in the UK.

Rosie, the women were definitely women, because they lifted up their burkas to show that they hadn’t any more things concealed underneath, so to be honest, it makes me think, were they actually Muslims, or were they just using the burkas to conceal the stolen items. Who knows, I don’t.

If anybody wishes to learn about other cultures there are many ways to do this.

So their own culture demands that they cover up and yet they admire our style of clothing

their own culture? Some Muslims are British

our style of clothing? as opposed to what?

Pity some of our own couldn't cover up their mounds of flesh hanging around their bodies as it would appear that those with ginormous bodies dress in as little as they possibly can.

"their own culture? Some Muslims are British"

Isn't it extraordinary the slight difference between how Queen Elizabeth ties her headscarfs and how Muslim ladies tie their headscarfs, makes such a big difference to common perceptions.

This thread is about the face covering, not the wearing of a headscarf.

Alexa, your uppity response days more about you than it says about anyone on this thread.

'Some Muslims are British'...correction, they are British citizens. My brother was born in Egypt but he isn't an Arab.

Muslims have been coming to this country for some years now but the problem of the burqa is a recent one. Of course, Europeans are going to find it strange, seeing people walking around with their faces covered. It's totally unreasonable to expect us to just accept it without complaint.

Why is it "totally unreasonable to expect us to just accept it without complaint"?

I can understand this being the subject of all kinds of discussion ranging over many issues but complaint - why?

No they are British. They have lived here for generations. Again, stunning ignorance.

their own culture? Some Muslims are British

Why are one or two posters trying to find fault with what is an interesting discussion about the wearing of the burqa in the UK?

You a re right Maddy. No one is having a go at the women who have to wear them or choose to wear them. Quite rightly, most posters are questioning that form of dress which is alien to western culture and I see only sympathy for the women forced or obliged to cover themselves from head to toe.

As has been mentioned this is an extreme form of Islam which most of the Muslim women I know also abhor. It creates problems and is not a compulsory form of attire for those with faith.

We should be concerned when there still exist fundamental regimes who treat women as chattels, determine how they dress and decree those daring to show their bodies will severely beaten or punished. See Minniemoo's extremely pertinent post and photo links regarding the changes Muslim women have been forced to endure since violent and radical Islam took hold in parts of the middle east. It is a subculture that most westernised Muslim females do not recognise or support. As a feminist I stand with them.

Rosie, how does your interesting theory work with people who are both black and British?