Do I have the right to know my mother's medical arrangements?

I didn’t think it was ridiculous to ask a question on here, either. I made it clear at the start that I wasn’t sure if I was right to be concerned.

My knickers remain untwisted, but I think your post is very rude, Poppyred. I also think that either you have not read the thread or you do not understand the concept of confidentiality.

Further, it is a huge leap to suggest that because I question the use of information divulged because I am NOK, the answer is to stop being NOK. As I have said, I have no wish to do this - that would be an over-reaction!

Thanks to those who understand that the fact that no harm was done is not really the point.

We are all so precious these days aren’t we.....?

No, it's really not ridiculous Poppyred; it's actually a very serious breach of data protection. DPR laws are stringently adhered to, particularly within the NHS. If Doodledog's mother has not given her GP permission to contact her daughter, in the event that she cannot be reached by telephone, they shouldn't have done so. There is cause for a legitimate complaint here.

This is ridiculous! Take your name off as next of kin then. No personal information was left!

This reminds me of someone suing a paramedic because he/she broke his ribs when trying to resuscitate him!

Stop getting your knickers in a twist .... no harm was done and the surgery was trying their best to contact your Mum.

Nah! No offence taken NotSpaghetti!

Chewbacca, does the patient give explicit consent to these calls or are they "routine"?

Yes NotSpaghetti; when they initially attend the hospital, they're asked if they would like to opt in to recieve appointment reminders. If they agree, they're offered a choice of phone calls, emails or text messages and the appropriate contact details are taken. They can opt out at any time. Strict data protection laws are in place for both the external company providing the service and the Trust that they work for. Breaches are punitive.

Just re-read my last post Chewbacca - I want to stress I'm not "getting at you" but am genuinely interested. Sorry if the tone is a bit off! That wasn't my intention.

TBH I’ve heard much more often about NHS refusal to communicate with a relative of someone with dementia, when the relative knows that the person will completely forget about any appt., even if they registered it in the first place, and haven’t hidden or thrown out any letter - which is common.

Yes, it’s all down to patient confidentiality, but it just results in a lot of the no-show appointments they complain about.

Chewbacca, does the patient give explicit consent to these calls or are they "routine"?

Does the patient give direct and explicit consent to an outside organisation having enough data to make the calls?

I know it's an outside service that Derby hospital uses and they do not seek direct consent to transfer the patient's data for exactly this purpose.

Doodledog I think you are right and the surgery should not have contacted you.

I also agree that sometimes doing things that is wrong is useful or convenient. My husband is always in the dark about his mother's health as she is the channel through which the information comes and it's invariably wrong.

I feel some people aren't grasping the idea of confidentiality. I had exactly this discussion with a hospital once when they left a message on my answerphone. I eventually tracked down the person who had implemented the policy of leaving messages and through them spoke to their data holder. They said they will ask permission to call people in future. The phone number on my file was from years ago and I didn't know they had it. In my opinion, the health service gives way too much info away.

Everyone is keen to quote "GDPR" at you when you want some totally allowable info or change but no-one seems to understand confidentiality.

I believe that is the protocol that all medical clinics and surgeries practice Chewbacca and in Doodles case this was clearly not adhered to, therefore a breach.

I work for an organisation that contacts patients to remind them of their hospital appointments. We have a very strict code of conduct. When we call, we ask to speak to the patient. If the person who answers the call identifies as the patient, they are asked a number of personal identification questions and they must answer them all correctly before the call can proceed further. If the patient isn't available, we can go no further; leave no messages, no details, no return telephone numbers; not even with spouses or next of kin. Several further attempts will be made to speak personally to the patient by calling at different times but at no time can messages be left. All calls are monitored and breaches of security are dealt with immediately.

Thank you for your input .

I have explained why I was concerned, and that I accept that I may have over-reacted. I'm not sure what more I can say, really.

If my mum had been seriously ill it would have been a different matter, as the next of kin is (rightly) informed in those circumstances, unless the patient has expressed a wish that they shouldn't be.

As it was, she was not seriously ill, it was a routine appointment, and the receptionist called me immediately after ringing my mum's number and not getting an answer.

Don't see problem if you are next of kin. If there is a problem and they can't contact your Mum and it is urgent then of course they contact you and if your DH or anyone else picks up the phone so what. Would you rather if she was critically ill that no one let you know? If she is not concerned then stop getting embroiled in protocols or similar and be happy you were actually informed. If they didn't then would you be on your high horse asking why were you not informed?

I think being 86 is relevant, as it's more likely that an elderly person may have had some mishap.
It does sound like the receptionist was a bit hasty, tho, and leaving a message on your phone wasn't particularly effective anyway as you were away.

The hypothetical 20 year old needn't name her controlling father as next of kin, so then he wouldn't get any messages about her.
A patient can name anyone they want to, as next of kin, but not everyone knows that of course.

Yes, it probably does cloud the issue on here.
Presumably the hospital doesn't know about the POA.

Callistemon I wonder if the POA thing is muddying the waters here. I wish I hadn't mentioned it, as it's really irrelevant. POA does not kick in until the patient has been declared unfit to speak for themselves, and that is not the case with my mum, so the hospital will not know about it (or if they do, it is still not relevant) .

I think that everyone has a NOK listed on their medical notes, but as far as I know, that just means that they will be informed if the patient dies. It does not give them the right to be told about medical appointments.

Incidentally, by the time I got the message, my mum had picked up her own messages and contacted the receptionist herself. When she hadn't got through to mum immediately, she had called me - it's not like she tried for days with no luck.

I think my mum had just been in the bath or something. The delay at my end was because I am on holiday and didn't pick up the message either. I would maybe feel less strongly if a week had gone by and my mum might have been missing vital medical attention, but that was not the case. I also wonder if the fact that she is 86 is relevant, and she has been assumed to be in need of looking after. This is not the case at all - she is very independent and capable.

Greeneyedgirl that was different and you were right to be annoyed

Luckygirl

You are named as next of kin (reasonable, especially as you have PofA); hospital could not get your Mum, so rang you. They did not reveal the medical problem - so I cannot see what your problem is. They were acting responsibly in your Mum's best interests. Sounds fine to me.

As I understand it your Mum is not annoyed, but you are. I wouldn't worry about it if I were you. The hospital has enough to worry about!

I agree with Luckygirl.

No medical information was left on your answering machine and you are next of kin and also have POA.

Definitely a breach of confidentiality. This may not seem a serious breach but it could have been. I was equally annoyed when I got a reminder on my ansaphone for flu vaccs a couple of years ago from a drug company!
When I asked the surgery how an outside company had my tel no they said, it was ok as they hadn’t disclosed my name, but they had my no and knew that I was eligible for the vacc so what other info did they have I wonder? Insurance companies would love this type of information.

Yes, it was a breach.

Why was the GP disgusted? With you for not answering your phone, or with the hospital for not leaving a message?

In those circumstances I would have expected them to text or leave a message, as it was your phone. My mum's message was left on a landline phone that wasn't hers, and the receptionist had no idea who had access to it or may have heard it played back.

Earlier this year information about a fracture (I'd been told there was no fracture) from the hospital where I had xrays after a fall did not get through to me for forty-eight hours because no message was left and the call came on an 0800 number to my mobile. Unless I'm expecting something I don't answer calls to my mobile from numbers I don't have in my contacts already.

As it happened it didn't matter too much though my GP, who got the information to me eventually, was pretty disgusted. What if it had been something more urgent?

Thanks, Evie64.

Your examples are the sort of thing I had in mind. It was never about my mum’s situation itself, but about the principle. I was beginning to wonder if I was losing the plot

That is a useful post, Evie. Thank you.

On the subject of leaving a phone number though, unless something like an 0800 number is given, it won't be hard, especially if it's the local surgery or hospital, to find out whence the number comes. And if it's an 0800-type number, I wouldn't call it back on the strength of only a first name.