People who menstruate

Starblaze

Was there evidence of puddles on the floor and the toilet being generally dirtier? Maybe it was just a perception

BTW the above is a question not a statement.

I have used unisex toilets in theatres and university buildings. They are generally smellier than ladies loos in my experience.
I don’t notice it on trains and planes so much though.

It might be a good idea to make sure cubicles have walls which touch the ground and ceiling and actually Unisex loos are more likely to have those.

And it might be an even better idea if we just keep men out of spaces that are just for women, especially when those women are in a vulnerable position.

So that's 2 Chewbacca but transwomen have been sharing women's loos for about 40 years. So is it realy a huge problem? It might be a good idea to make sure cubicles have walls which touch the ground and ceiling and actually Unisex loos are more likely to have those.
The second incident would be covered by a proper and legally enforcable risk assessment. I really don't want women to be at risk but I don't see how putting in place unenforceable regulations would do that.

because there is no evidence that any transwoman has assaulted anyone in those spaces.

You've said this before trisher and I've already provided you with evidence that it already has happened.

February 2019

A transgender woman threatened to stab a 10-year-old girl’s mother during a terrifying sexual assault in the female toilets of a Morrison’s supermarket. Katie Dolatowski, 18, admitted grabbing the youngster by her face and forcing her into the cubicle before demanding she take her trousers off at the store in Fife, Scotland, on 4 March. She carried out a similar attack just weeks earlier, on 8 February, when another young girl using the toilet at an Asda store in Halbeath spotted Dolatowski using a mobile phone to spy on her over the partition wall.

September 2019

SICKENED residents at a female-only hostel have hit out after a transgender sex offender was housed there.
Katie Dolatowski, 18, avoided a prison sentence for sexually assaulting a 10-year-old girl in Morrisons, Kirkcaldy, and filming a 12-year-old over a toilet cubicle in Asda, Dunfermline.
Campaigners say women at the supported Fife accommodation - which has a shared bathroom could have been put in danger while she was living there.

One resident in the unit for homeless offenders said: “This is a women’s hostel and it’s all women who work here. I feel sick and can’t stop thinking about what she has done.”
A spokeswoman for Women and Girls in Scotland said: “Katie Dolatowski has already taken advantage of access to female spaces to commit sexual assault.

“It is absolutely unacceptable that this person was being given the same opportunity again."

Was there evidence of puddles on the floor and the toilet being generally dirtier? Maybe it was just a perception

BTW the above is a question not a statement.

Iam64 did those women not have the courage to call the men out and ask them if they would do similar things in their home toilets?

No regulations for changing spaces and toilets I think, because there is no evidence that any transwoman has assaulted anyone in those spaces. (The attacks in unisex toilets were not necessarily by trans women) For spaces like refuges and prisons a proper and legally enforceable risk assessment that must be adhered to, which identifies anyone who might be a risk to others, and special accommodation provided for those people.
One of the real problems is that for some reason a situation which has existed for years-transwomen using women's facilities- has suddenly become headline news and fears have been generated.

At the risk of going Off Piste, in one building I worked at we had more women than men in our teams. The managers decided the toilet queue issue was best resolved by what they called unisex toilets. This meant the women used what had been the men's toilet on the top floor, as well as the 'women's toilet' on the ground floor.
It took a week before rebellion broke out amongst the women. They refused to share the traditional men's toilet, or to allow men to use the women's toilet any more. Complaints about puddles on the floor, stinky smells, paper towels scattered about and a general unpleasantness -that's what the women said. I was often out the building so it mattered less to me or some colleagues but mattered a lot to others. Management conceded. Women reverted to the queue.
I do apologise if this seems flippant given the serious nature of this discussion but just saying.

So what's the alternative, no regulations because they might not be enforceable?

So if there are two toilets next to each other one unisex, one for women who is going to stand at the door and check who uses the women's toilet? And how will they decide who is entitled to use it? I really don't see the point of having unenforceable regulations.

Galaxy @ 23.29 "I think you can solve toilets in a heartbeat. You provide unisex and single sex." "It's easy."

Starblaze @ 23.34 "Why would we need both? If they are next door to each other anyway"

Starblaze @ 11.24 Show me where I said that women can't have single sex spaces and I will address it.

There's a contradiction here? Which is the correct one please?

Suziewoozie your post @ 11.31 is spot on.

I've just noticed I missed a few things I want to address.

Triggers follow (sexual abuse)

I haven't been directly assaulted by a woman but I have experienced women who either directly allowed a male family member to abuse child me knowing it was happening and another female family member (my mum) who talked me out of any kind of justice or support saying that people would see me as damaged goods if I told anyone.

The female PE teached from my school left after allegations from female children which I am not aware of what the outcome was because I was also a child. Nothing physical happened to me but I remember her staring and feeling uncomfortable.

Also gay people still face prejudice and people still believe their sexuality is a choice but obviously huge steps have been made in the right direction.

I'm glad there is no hard feelings though galaxy I've definitely learnt a lot from it all

I spent two days a couple of weeks thrashing this back and forth with trisher. I lost hours of work that I had to make up . Hope you feel better soon.

Much too much, I'm in bed with kidney trouble and an infection that won't shift, that's my excuse anyway lol

You didnt dont worry, we just both feel strongly about this and that's ok. It's important to keep talking although I think to be fair we have done our bit on that

I am not being snippy I just dont believe that people have a different idea of what a woman is. I think they say that to be kind.

galaxy people who say that with any view in any discussion is just utterly appalling and when I see it happen from people on my side in any opinion its incredibly painful.

Its probably part of why I enjoy this forum more than some of the others that are available but... On the flipside, we are all for the most part older and likely more often set in our ways... So right or wrong, often discussion doesn't really change anything...

I really honestly truly tried to say that as politely as possible without making any sweeping generalisations so huge apologies if I mucked it up

They do starblaze just some people pretend they dont.

It can galaxy in a safeguarding and physical sense but possibly not for people whose feelings dictate that transgender women allow male superiority in some fashion and that detracts from their own womanhood.

Its just difficult because not everyone has the same idea of what being a woman means

Yes I am finding it a bonus not to be told to die in a fire in this discussion, it's a nice change even if we are having a bit of a barney starblaze

You can believe it all you want Star it doesn’t make it possible, feasible or desirable. It’s cloud cuckoo land which you’d realise if you were really aware of the hatred poured onto all women who dare publicly to criticise TRAs and defend women’s hard won rights

Transwomen are of the male sex if you argue for their inclusion in womens spaces then you (again generic you) have removed single sex provision. This is the nub of it I think you I guess believe that transwomen are women, I dont. I dont really see how that can be resolved without women losing out.

And not to have transwomen winning cycle races, or athletic events when competing against women

What questions haven't I answered specifically from my not an expert on much of anything stance?

How can I?

When my belief is that there should be a way to keep everyone comfortable and safe without actively discriminating.

Because I acknowledge and understand that people are upset and have concerns