What can we expect from tomorrow's announcement?

It is an odd tactic..but maybe testing early responses to temper their "real" announcement!

My thought is:- Liverpool Manchester and the other really high Covid rate areas to be put on Red ie shut bars, restaurants etc and no unnecessary travel. Other areas with medium high Covid infections like Newcastle and Nottingham to be on Amber ie stay the same as is currently no visiting houses, 10pm pubs closure. Areas like Devon and Norfolk etc remain in Green zone. Groups of 6 permitted.
All schools and universities to remain open whichever zone.

Frankly my dear, I couldn't give a damn (quote, Gone with the Wind). It neatly sums up my attitude.

We are lumbered with a government that could not organise the proverbial in a brewery. Rules change daily, MPs, of all parties think whatever the rules are they do not apply to them.

No one talks to anybody no-one thinks anything through and every time the government announces new measures it is surprised by the obvious consequences. - if all pubs and eateries close at 10.00pm, there will suddenly be lots of people coming out of them onto the streets all at the same time. I doubt the new raft of measures will be any better

I am now ignoring any news to do with COVID. I wear mask and gloves when out and avoid my fellow creatures. As far as I am concerned the government can make any rules it likes, I couldn't care less.

Pubs in liverpool will be locked down completely, of bits and bobs I've looked at are correct, I think.
I'm sure we're being drip fed what to expect, to save us from rioting at the sheer inadequacy of firm, decisive leadership.

Most universities are 'open' in the sense that students are being taught, but remotely. They are not likely to go back to business as usual before Christmas, and probably not even then.

We have our ruby wedding coming up, and booked a UK city break in a hotel that does not do refunds (it was booked ages ago). Much as I was looking forward to it, I'm rather hoping that something is announced that means we can't go, as I don't want to make the decision between going on a potentially risky break and losing a few hundred pounds.

It’s not just MPs who don’t think the rules apply to them; it seems a significant proportion of the population think they are exempt. Hence the rates going up.

Has anyone noticed that the cities with high infection rate are all university cites? Newcastle has over 1000 students testing positive. Is it any wonder then that the infection rate has risen? The universities will remain 'open' but all teaching will be on-line, which means of course that the students will be able to party more-no need to get up for lectures!
It's very doubtfull if people in the North will abide by any rules.

Do you think that a lot of students will go home (ie to their parents), rather than stay in a hall or flat on their own? I think I would if I were them. I'd be encouraging my children to come home too, if they were in that position.

Students will still have to get up if they have online lectures, and there are rules about being suitably dressed for them (presumably to avoid a sea of pyjamas ).

I don't think it's at all surprising that infection rates are high in University towns and cities - it was daft to open them in the first place for anything other than online learning.

It's very doubtfull if people in the North will abide by any rules.

I’m not sure what you mean, trisher? I think most of us have so far, confusing and frustrating though it’s been.

I think alot of people are thinking that now Monica

History has shown us that pandemics usually come in two waves then it goes away

So hopefully after this second wave, which isn't as severe as the last one, it will leave us for good.

I have a friend that is an ICU Doctors and he says that Covid patients have risen somewhat but no where near what it was last time.

trisher

Has anyone noticed that the cities with high infection rate are all university cites? Newcastle has over 1000 students testing positive. Is it any wonder then that the infection rate has risen? The universities will remain 'open' but all teaching will be on-line, which means of course that the students will be able to party more-no need to get up for lectures!
It's very doubtfull if people in the North will abide by any rules.

‘We’d like to apologies to people in the North. It must be awful for them’
I’m sure people in the north are as capable of following the rules as those in the south. Don’t be so rude! ??

Msida, isn't it rather too soon to know?

trisher The infection rate was rising in most of these towns and cities well before the university term started.so I do not think students can be blamed for the rise.

Leicester and Nottingham had tighter measures introduced in July several weeks after the university term had ended and months before the new term started. In the North west the new restrictions came in in early September.

As for student lie-ins. DS is a university lecturer, online lectures have to be attended in real time and I understand that there are facilities for interaction between students and lecturer. then there are seminars and tutor group meetings that are done on the university equivalent of Zoom, which again expect students to be present when they happen. Then there is course work which has to be completed to deadlines. Not meeting deadlines mean marks are deducted.So long lie-ins and all day parties are unlikely.

Give a thought also the lecturers having to deal with the complications of putting all their lectures on screen. It is a lot more difficult than simply reading a lecture on screen. Over the summer the universities have been acquiring new computer systems to meet the varying needs of online teaching, lecturers are having to teach themselves how these, often complex systems work and integrate. OK if you are technically minded but some, who are less technical are close to breakdown, living alone and struggling to understand the new systems and with little or no IT support because IT people are busy installing and getting these new systems up and running and often do not fully understand all the new systems themselves.

Bit of a sweeping statement there. I live in the “north” as do most of my adult children and their families...we’re all abiding by the rules...if we weren’t then I could have would have had the family celebration I had wanted for my 70th birthday this weekend...!

That's a really good point in your last paragraph M0nica about IT experts being so busy devising new systems that they aren't available to support the teaching staff on a day to day basis. Online learning was gradually advancing before covid, but it has now been forced to accelerate at breakneck speed which has left many academics floundering.

The infection rate was rising in most of these towns and cities well before the university termstarted, soI do not think students can be blamed for the rise.
I disagree there in some respects M0nica. Exeter in Devon had almost zero cases until the university returned. Now all of a sudden it is in the red zone.

The reasons for cases rising more in some areas than other are structural, large areas of poverty, with the health problems that go with that. Multigenerational households living in small houses built for nuclear families. More business premises, employing people in conditions where proper separation is difficult, if not impossible. Overcrowding generally and the lack of open spaces where people can get out and exercise without being close to other people.

Add to that a disorganised and chaotic response by government who constantly, almost randomly,change the rules we have to live within until it is almost impossible to know what is and is not required. Then there are all the exceptions to every rule that suggest they do not matter much

Consider the rule about masks. It is known that the COVID is spread mainly by droplets in the air from people's noses and mouths. So we are told to wear masks. Except for all the exceptions: see www.gov.uk/government/publications/face-coverings-when-to-wear-one-and-how-to-make-your-own/face-coverings-when-to-wear-one-and-how-to-make-your-own. It is amazing that there is anyone wearing a mask the exemptions are so many.

If mask wearing is that important it should be mask up or stay home or do not do the activity. Just as we said to those who shielded during the first lockdown. Currently, with so many exemptions it just suggests that masking might help, but not if it causes any inconvenience, which is not really very reassuring. The same with six people from six separate households meeting. If one has COVID it can be passed on to 6 households. Much better to limit meetings to 2 households, ignore numbers, and only 2 different households in one week. Again, the restraint is irrational as it both constrains and tells people they can socialise widely.

If people are to obey rules they need to be able to respect those making the rules and be confident that every rule introduced has been thoroughly thought through and is rational and reasonable. None of those conditions has been present at any time since COVID first appeared over 9 months ago.

Is it surprising people ignore the rules?

I went into Durham last Thursday and couldn’t believe the large groups of students wandering about. They had no concept of social distancing, many of them refusing to move to let people pass. It was quite worrying, in fact I won’t be visiting there until the infection rate comes down considerably.

......Much better to limit meetings to 2 households, ignore numbers, and only 2 different households in one week........

Absolutely. A very sensible and workable suggestion. I believe the government have admitted that the rule of six had no scientific basis. No more than two households per week seems eminently workable. The rule of six will fail because it's not really workable for many families e.g. a family of six people cannot meet up with anyone at all unless they split up.

I appreciate what you are saying Hetty58 you could be right. I just think that looking at history does help find answers and I only hope that things do not get any worse

Msida, me too, I'm really hoping that the NHS won't be overburdened this winter.

I can foresee two real problems, though. Firstly, the government may be very reluctant to bring in sufficient effective measures to reduce the infection rate (bearing in mind the terrible consequences for the economy).

Secondly, people will have 'lockdown fatigue', feel that they've sacrificed enough and have their usual Midwinter Feast/Christmas festivities and get-togethers. They'll refuse to take it seriously or comply with the measures anyway.

I do hope I'm wrong!

I think most people are using their own “Cummings common sense” rules and don’t know or care about the government’s ever changing rules, which are unenforced.
My rules would be-
Mask wearing and social distancing on transport and in shops should be strictly enforced = no mask worn correctly = no travel or entry to shop.
2 households should be allowed to meet once a week indoors or outdoors.
Schools and pubs should stay open with staggered opening times decided locally..
Limited numbers of socially distanced spectators allowed at sports and small entertainments, (no reason why people can’t attend a lower league football match sitting outside spaced out, wearing masks , or a classical music concert in a cathedral, where they can easily distance . )
Only students studying subjects with large practical element - medicine, science, music etc need be present at university, those studying English, history etc should stay at home and study remotely.
Nightingale hospitals used for covid patients, other hospitals to deal with outpatients, and other services( obviously funding/ staffing crucial for this one) . Covid free smaller hospitals for cancer, heart patients etc( this is happening in many areas).
Still, you can bet the government are bound to mess it up with yet another changed complicated system which even they won’t adhere to. Wonder what the next 3 word slogan will be.

The trouble with some of your suggestions is that is not what happens in reality. I attend childrens football weekly, there is no social distancing with the spectators, no one will police these ideas of holding small sporting events for example( not that I particularly want them to) and so it continues.

In times of crises we need competence and leadership.

We have neither.