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Self ID of gender...can we discuss this?

(144 Posts)
grannygranby Sun 21-Feb-21 11:46:42

I am a second-wave feminist and have always done my bit through artwork design and publishing to be gender critical - against gender stereotypes and to support women in this unequal society whether it was for wages opportunities or not being allowed in privileged spaces reserved for men.
So can we discuss this on gransnet ? because I have three granddaughters and I will be letting them down if I allow the law and language to be changed to favour a minority of men who wish to identify as women.
Sexual identity is real, it is genetic, it physically affects the foetus it means that as a species we are enabled to reproduce through sexual means widely sharing our genes. It means that half the humans will have a different biology. Generally this makes women smaller and physically less strong which is why we have separate categories for sport. It is not to do with feelings. Women also are vulnerable sexually to men which can cause them to become impregnated against their will... these are big basic issues and why society and civilisations have protected their spaces. All this is under threat. What do you think female gransnettters?

trisher Sun 21-Feb-21 12:00:07

This is discussed a great deal on other threads. But I think a bit of basic information is helpful first. Firstly self ID as supported by most trans people is not just a matter of deciding one day to change gender most of them want a legal process which may involve a court and/or a solicitor. What is removed is the present system and the medical assessment requirement.
Secondly this isn't just about transwomen, the number of transmen is growing and may even outnumber transwomen by now.
Thirdly the law protects women as it stands, unfortunately it has not always been applied or used properly . But it does say that single sex facilities can be permitted to deny access to anyone with a GRC if that service could be threatened by such access .https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201719/cmselect/cmwomeq/1470/147010.htm
I'm actually a third wave feminist (1st suffragettes, 2nd 1970s, 3rd 2020) and as such I support all minorities who are subjected to discrimination and mistreatment by the patriachy.

Blinko Sun 21-Feb-21 12:00:15

This subject has been done to death on another, earlier thread. which ran and ran to umpteen pages. You might want to check it out. Sorry, I don't know how to do a link otherwise I would.

trisher Sun 21-Feb-21 12:00:50

Sorry link publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201719/cmselect/cmwomeq/1470/147010.htm

Blinko Sun 21-Feb-21 12:01:17

X-ed posts, Trisher.

trisher Sun 21-Feb-21 12:09:58

Snap! Blinko what was that little finger linking thing you did when somebody said the same as you?

vampirequeen Sun 21-Feb-21 12:12:57

I used to know someone with DID. Some days he would wake up as his male self and other days as his female self. This self could also change during the day. He had two wardrobes and to an extent two lives. He always identified as male on official documents but was definitely female when his female self was around so would use female toilets as he would stood out like a sore thumb in male toilets dressed in leather mini skirt and high heels. He said that when he was his female self he never saw women in a sexual way but he never went into female changing rooms as he was aware that others may not feel comfortable if they realised that he had a male body. It was very difficult for him. He tried to accommodate society's views but a lot of society didn't want to accommodate his needs.

If someone is transgender then I think they should be able to identify as what they feel they are. I don't worry about other women in changing rooms being attracted to women and I wouldn't worry about someone who is transgender.

AmberSpyglass Sun 21-Feb-21 12:16:15

Fantastic post, vampirequeen

Trans people have a right to the services appropriate to their gender (and gender and sex have been used interchangeably in legal documents for decades now). They don’t magically become more authentically their gender just by ticking a government box.

A small - and it is increasingly small, and frankly embarrassing - portion of the feminist movement disagree. Luckily, the majority of society doesn’t and progress is being made and will continue to be made.

I know trans women who marched on the front lines of feminist marches in the 70s and 80s, whose work was instrumental as part of the collective effort. You may call yourself a second wave feminist, but you don’t get to define feminism for anyone else.

geekesse Sun 21-Feb-21 12:20:02

This will get bad-tempered. Threads on this topic always do.

Galaxy Sun 21-Feb-21 12:20:42

Sex is a protected characteristic under the equality act. Women who have been raped and assaulted are entitled to spaces away from men as are those who want privacy for religious reasons or just for privacy.

nanna8 Sun 21-Feb-21 12:22:05

Yawn . Haven’t we been here just recently ?

Blinko Sun 21-Feb-21 12:22:35

VQ that is surely very strange. I wonder how common it is. We do seem to be moving towards an acceptance of gender fluidity.

However it does create some thorny issues around safe spaces for some vulnerable people, such as women in Refuges seeking protection after escaping an abusive relationship.

Or prisons, or showers, or sporting activities.

I don't know what the solution is...

Cass64 Sun 21-Feb-21 12:29:57

I accept people as the care to present themselves to me. I dont care what gender they are born with or what they identify themselves as now as long as they are nice people.

I think the silly do gooders with the chest feeding lark etc do more harm to the trans community than good. They cause problems and friction where there was none.

I dont claim to have answers to everything but if we all stop being so hung up on birth gender ID as being the only thing that defines us we might be able to move on..as human beings.

cornishpatsy Sun 21-Feb-21 12:43:07

Trans people that I know, admittedly only 2, just want to blend into society without shouting about it.

I do not understand the fuss about women-only places, I assume that those worried about it must ask every woman what gender is on their birth certificate and hopefully get told to mind their own business.

grannygranby Sun 21-Feb-21 13:19:49

the irony and disturbing (to me) fact is that the Trans Rights Activists endorse gender stereotypes...pink for girls, make up, high heels often seeming like a travesty of womanhood...something that has always felt misogynistic to me. It's a backward reactionary step. Keep your sexual identity be as gender fluid as you like..let males be feminine and females masculine if that is how they feel it has always been thus sexual attraction has always been subjective but for males to pose as lesbians is making a lot of lesbians very uneasy. Their feelings matter too. ..we have managed to legalise homosexuality...female homosexuality has never been outlawed.... do post the link where it has been discussed fully.

Hetty58 Sun 21-Feb-21 13:53:14

grannygranby:

'a minority of men who wish to identify as women' -- ??

There are women who wish to identify as men too!

Iam64 Sun 21-Feb-21 14:00:43

Hello grannygranby, as others have said, there have been a number of discussions on this recently. I wouldn’t agree that it’s been done to death because it’s complex and attitudes are changing.

I share your concerns. I expect to be dismissed as a 2nd wave feminist, not up to date and probably terf. The previous discussions have often been repetitive, polarising and irritable.

NellG Sun 21-Feb-21 14:04:05

I have never understood why self confessed feminists, women who have spent a lifetime standing up for, defining and defending the rights of others all of a sudden want to marginalise and 'other' another group of humans who pose no greater threat than any other. Or is it a question of "Oi, no, that's not what we fought for - it's only equality if we say it is. it's only freedom if we say so." ?

Baffled - but hopeful that Bill Murray will be along any minute now.

vampirequeen Sun 21-Feb-21 14:14:15

I don't understand the term 'second wave feminist'. Can someone explain please?

NellG Sun 21-Feb-21 14:32:27

www.pacificu.edu/magazine/four-waves-feminism

Cass64 Sun 21-Feb-21 14:35:35

NellG

www.pacificu.edu/magazine/four-waves-feminism

Oh great ... More boxes to shove us into. Labels to define us ...

We are all people ...live and let live

NellG Sun 21-Feb-21 15:27:54

Cass64 I agree, I was simply responding to vampirequeens request to have the 2nd wave explained - as this article explained the timeline and philosophies it seems better than me making a ham fist of it. Doesn't mean I agree with it, neither does it mean I care how other people feel about it. It's just information.

GagaJo Sun 21-Feb-21 15:34:24

I have three granddaughters and I will be letting them down if I allow the law and language to be changed to favour a minority of men who wish to identify as women.

Have you asked your grandaughers perspective on this? In my experience, a LOT of young people don't understand the fuss about trans. They just accept it.

GagaJo Sun 21-Feb-21 15:37:25

1st wave - suffragettes
2nd wave - 1960s / 70s. Women's lib.
3rd wave - 1980s. (Dunno - sorry!)
4th wave - now. Intersectional feminism.

Gossamerbeynon1945 Sun 21-Feb-21 15:52:39

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